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Thread: The Joker

  1. #11
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    But I always assumed he was an INFP.
    From everything I've seen and read, it's pretty hard to argue against.

  2. #12
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    The Joker is an archetypal Trickster figure - much like the Norse god Loki or the Native American Coyote god.

    Trickster attributes and personalities line up quite closely with the ENTP descriptions - mercurial, unpredictable, clever and (at times) ruthless.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
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    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
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    With no problems.

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  3. #13
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    I thought ISFP for some reason...ISFPs are joker types...or maybe ESTP.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    That joker is a pretty hard one to type. On the one hand he defines himself as not being a planner, but on the other hand he successfully carries out elaborate schemes suggestive of considerable Ni.
    Ne s are good planners too.
    The difference between an Ni planner and Ne planner is from my personal experience

    Ni - Makes plans (and contingency plans, which depends on how much he/she uses Ni) and sticks to them. If it doesn't work they move to plan B (INTJ).

    But the downside to this is they are not very flexible on their ideas. Yes if they get a better Idea they would change the first, but not QUICKLY ENOUGH.

    This is why xNTJs appear to be rigid. And they are. Not without reason. They know what they are doing is right and they know what they are doing will work. They simply get annoyed when some idiot stands in their way/ or if there are delays.

    Ne - Has a goal in his/her mind. Knows exactly what they (ENTPs) want. But they do not tend to plan as much as Ni users.

    But the plus side to this is, since they use Ne they can see possibilities everywhere. If plan A got screwed up they'll SEE a plan B. And plan B is always better than the plan A.

    This is one reason why ENTPs look pretty manipulative. They have something in their heads which don't need to express like the xNTJs do.
    xNTJs need to clarify (Te) things to others and keep them informed (Te), cus they don't want things to go wrong because of misunderstandings.

    xNTJs are more PLAN oriented.
    xNTPs are more GOAL oriented. Especially ENTPs.

    THIS IS WHY xNTJs GET SO PISSED OFF WHEN THEIR PLANS FAIL.
    BUT ENTPs DON'T GET PISSED WHEN THEIR PLANS FAIL.
    WHY?

    A plan could fail. But just because a plan fails it does not mean that the goal failed. Goals Don't fail. Plans do.

    The Joker does not have any plans (Te). But he does Have goals (Ti). And his Ne comes up with a plan at the right moment.

    So the Joker was telling the truth.
    He does not have any plans.
    He just comes up with them at the last moment by using his Ne. Cus Ne connects the dots to give what Ti wants to.

    He is an ENTP.
    And not just an ENTP.
    He is what any ENTP would be if not for social pressure and THE LAW.

  5. #15
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Interesting post Curzon. I'm not sure I agree about XNTJs being plan oriented vs goal oriented purely based on my experience with (mature) INTJs. They tend to be very fixed on their goal but still pretty adaptable when faced with unforseen challenges. The reason they are so adaptable is that they can see the big picture. I could see an XSTJ being inflexible beyond their plans though. You could definitely argue that XNTJs are slower to react to unforseen circumstances than XTNPs, but where in the movie is there evidence that the Joker is being faced with an unforseen circumstance? Even when the people in the boat refuse to blow each other up (to his disappointment and apparent surprise), he still has a backup trigger on his person.

    The reason I have difficulty in accepting that the Joker is an ENTP adapting to new situations on the fly is that, wherever there is dynamite planted to enable his goal, there is evidence of a plan. Take when he was captured and thrown into jail for instance. He wanted to be thrown into jail to enable him to get to the accountant. He'd already taken measures to ensure both an escape-strategy (the bomb inserted into the prisoner) and to distract batman and a sizable contingent of the police force (kidnapping rachel dawes and harvey dent). His choice of those two to kidnap was also far from opportunistic, since his ultimate goal was to turn Harvey Dent to the dark side in order to show everyone that "when the chips are down, these 'civilized' people... they'll eat each other." Plans within plans. Virtually nothing the Joker does is done from mere on-the-spot opportunism or adaptation. Even his 'mistakes' are part of a bigger plan.

    So do I think the Joker was intended to be an ENTP-type character by the writers? Yes. Probably. (I'm not totally convinced on the T/F axis, but whatever.) Do I think he should be seen as an ENTP based on his actions in the movie? Not really. Maybe an atypically organized and foresightful ENTP, but not a typical one by any measure.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Interesting post Curzon. I'm not sure I agree about XNTJs being plan oriented vs goal oriented purely based on my experience with (mature) INTJs. They tend to be very fixed on their goal but still pretty adaptable when faced with unforseen challenges. The reason they are so adaptable is that they can see the big picture. I could see an XSTJ being inflexible beyond their plans though. You could definitely argue that XNTJs are slower to react to unforseen circumstances than XTNPs, but where in the movie is there evidence that the Joker is being faced with an unforseen circumstance? Even when the people in the boat refuse to blow each other up (to his disappointment and apparent surprise), he still has a backup trigger on his person.

    The reason I have difficulty in accepting that the Joker is an ENTP adapting to new situations on the fly is that, wherever there is dynamite planted to enable his goal, there is evidence of a plan. Take when he was captured and thrown into jail for instance. He wanted to be thrown into jail to enable him to get to the accountant. He'd already taken measures to ensure both an escape-strategy (the bomb inserted into the prisoner) and to distract batman and a sizable contingent of the police force (kidnapping rachel dawes and harvey dent). His choice of those two to kidnap was also far from opportunistic, since his ultimate goal was to turn Harvey Dent to the dark side in order to show everyone that "when the chips are down, these 'civilized' people... they'll eat each other." Plans within plans. Virtually nothing the Joker does is done from mere on-the-spot opportunism or adaptation. Even his 'mistakes' are part of a bigger plan.

    So do I think the Joker was intended to be an ENTP-type character by the writers? Yes. Probably. (I'm not totally convinced on the T/F axis, but whatever.) Do I think he should be seen as an ENTP based on his actions in the movie? Not really. Maybe an atypically organized and foresightful ENTP, but not a typical one by any measure.
    It seems that the image you have about ENTPs are not quite right. ENTPs are not ESTPs.
    There is a big difference.
    It seems that you have confused ENTPs APPARENT IMPULSIVENESS to be a real one. which is a fact in ESTPs.
    ENTPs are unpredictable (extremely). And disorganization. But that does not = to impulsive.
    And it definitely does not equal to Unplanned.
    Dude,
    An ENTP would never do something without a purpose, a goal, a reason.

    Like i said when they have their mind fixed on a goal they see 1000 possibilities (Ne Ne Ne) of achieving them.

    While an xNTJ is busy making PLANS to achieve goals an ENTP is busy connecting the dots to achieve a goal. This is the reason why ENTPs appear to be 1 step ahead of everything. They see what is going on. And instead of trying to change he circumstances (like xNTJ) to achieve their goal an ENTP would just bite their time (hopefully i got that right ) because they see the dots. All they have to do is give a little push or SIMPLY wait to see things happen and get what they want.

    Dude ENTP are not ESTPs.

    ENTPs see the BIG picture.
    They see a bigger picture than the INTJ.
    That is why ENTPs appear to be and are 'happy go lucky'.
    They have fun while they kick ass.

    An xNTJ would not do that. They have Te.
    Te = work 1st play later. Remember??

    Coming back to the subject

    well I'll get back to the subject. But 1st you'll have to reply to this.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I don't know much about him, so I thought "maybe this person knows more about him than I do." But I always assumed he was an INFP.
    "Person" uses image method for typing, based on intuitive impressions from non-verbal behavoir of people, simply _feel_ traits of types watching actors in movies. Knowing of facts was not used by me.

  8. #18
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I don't think Heath Ledger's Joker could be anything else but ENTP.
    The most anarchistic of the personality types..

    He wasn't a planner- his goal was to cause ultimate chaos.

    I have a future focus but often seem remarkably impulsive.
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  9. #19
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Curzon, your view of the planning aspect of J's is, how to say, little more than simplistic. There's some points that reveal lack of respect of J's (which might be ok), which may have contributed to your low understanding of them (which is not ok, unless one enjoys being wrong). That which doesn't earn your respect shouldn't be learned about, right?

    Well, first: "While an xNTJ is busy making PLANS to achieve goals.."

    NTJ strive toward efficiency, and they might or might not start right away with some more concrete steps towards a goal. NTJ usually plans ahead for future occurances of the same kind of troubles, goals & projects, and they might do more preparatory work in expectation of that.

    Plan for plan's sake simply doesn't hit the nerve with xNTJ. It may be a weak spot, a potential problem area, but really not the norm.

    Point two: "trying to change he circumstances (like xNTJ) to achieve their goal.."

    NTJ seem to be more interested in keeping their mind about some ideas they initially thought reasonable. They are more interested in efficiency, and it might be efficient to change circumstances one time, or changing what they want another time. Not all "circumstances" are beyond control for everyone. NTJ usually know approximately what kind of hardship and problems to expect from certain endeavors, so they can afford to endure little hardship on the way. Having greater reliance on the outcome of a certain thing makes it much easier to plan things that require it.

    This is not something I believe xNTJ usually engage in foolheartedly. On the opposite, NTJ are more likely to choose goals that are possible, even though hard to accomplish. They aren't that likely to start projects and end up deserting them because of reasons that could have easily been found (guess, expected) in the first place.

    I'm not sure what kind of "change" in the circumstances you're after, but xNTJ are usually that much heads in the clouds to wish changing the circumstances of people being selfish, for example. That can be pretty much relied upon.

    To put it short and simple, NTJ like to choose goals that are reasonably possible to achieve, even if hard to do so. They are less likely to back off from a goal and be satisfied with it. Given this, they are likely to give more thought to the goal in the beginning.
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