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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Default J/P myths

    There are a bunch of inaccurate stereotypes floating around about J/P, and they're just plain wrong. I don't know where they came from, I don't know why they persist, but they're false, inaccurate, and unreliable. (Have I stated that strongly enough?!) People forget about all the other letters, they forget about the theory, they forget it's about a personality pattern not about traits -- and they hone in on two letters: J & P, as if the mysteries of the world can be solved with just these two letters. Argh!

    The first stereotype is the notion that J's are always on time, and P's are always late. IT'S NOT TRUE!

    Two J's live together in my household, and we're often late for appointments. In fact, the standing joke around here is that "J" stands for "Just One More Thing!" -- meaning we invariably try to accomplish one additional thing before we charge out the door. We do not have a reputation for reliably being on time (ask my ISTJ sister!).

    In contrast, I've met P's who arrive at the airport several hours ahead of their flights, and arrive well in advance of any meetings. (Interestingly, one P admitted to me that he arrived early as a way of compensation for an acknowledged tendency to be late. Viva le compensation!)

    The point is, if you're using a stopwatch to distinguish P and J, you are wasting your time.

    Another myth is about Js being tidy and Ps being messy. Whoa again!

    The messiest house I've ever seen in my life belonged to an ESFJ. It looked like a garage sale gone mad -- with a layer of dust everywhere to boot! The "J" house I live in with my husband looks like a tornado went through it.

    Do you know who's probably the tidiest person I know? My ISTP dad, of course. (Notice the last letter, willya?) I also spent 8 years living with an ENFP -- and he would win the neatness award long before I would even be eligible. So saying J's are tidy and P's are messy is FALSE!

    Then there's the added problem of people who try to figure out whether they are J or P based on these same criteria! Well, as the Mafiosos say, "fuhgettabouttit!"

    Linda Berens has said that NJ often looks like P. And boy is that true in my NJ house. What's interesting is that my husband and I score equally on the questions of early-starting and pressure-prompted -- because we do both! Since we both possess the Chart-the-Course interaction style, we tend to put just enough energy into an event early on in the process to figure out what must be done to arrive at the goal point. But then we forget about the whole matter until we're "pressure-prompted" to actually set the wheels in motion for the event. Invariably, we cut the margin too finely, and quality of life can be rather questionable until the event has ended.

    There are other stereotypes around J/P -- you probably know what they are. I've heard that "Js are determined and energetic while Ps are unmotivated wimps." Whuh?! Where is that written, I wonder? Does that describe a healthy attribute of Type, as Isabel Myers intended? I don't THINK so!! And it's about as true as saying men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

    Dr. Berens says that if we spend too much time talking about J, before long we're really talking about SJ (extreme SJ!)... and if we spend too much time talking about P, we're really talking about NP (extreme NP!). So it's not good to single out and focus on J/P alone for drawing lots of Type conclusions.

    Whenever I see conversation deteriorate to the point that J and P are the only letters I'm hearing, then I know we're not talking type theory anymore -- we're talking bias and stereotype, and that means we don't know enough about type theory overall to keep the conversation going properly. I don't have patience for that, and I believe it's ignorant and inappropriate.

    The bottom line is that you can't point at that last letter and make a boatload of assumptions about it -- because whatever you assume will prove untrue for some portion of Earth's population. So don't do it.


    Right?
    INFJ or INFP? a closer look

  2. #42
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In other words, you don't have a real reason.
    i've seen behavior of this type in many NPs(including leonardo da vinci (ENTP) and myself). evidence as of now points towards a NP trait. i'd be willing to change my mind if i saw evidence for this type of behavior in INJs... i just haven't seen any.

    also, it's not about being tidy or messy or whatever else, it's the way that Ne and Ni are described.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  3. #43
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes I notice that as well. Rather odd really, I can't think of anyother person that this happens to. I can certainly say that General Grant was indeed an INTJ. He had a far better grasp of grand stratgey than his rival Robert E. Lee.
    So is he proof that 'gentle' and 'tolerant' INTJs exist?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    an INJ with Ne? i seriously doubt it. i argue that if he was INJ, he would:

    a) show more Ni in his behavior (and not drifting Ne)
    b) be more organized and less of a jack-of-all-trades (he was multi-faceted; i don't believe J's would ever be able to have that)

    for most of your quotes, it seems he would have either some sort of vice or a double standard. i doubt a J would have the same:



    natural P. a J would definitely have foreseen this and either kept himself from being impulsive or devised a plan to work things out.



    impulsive behavior is P. having a double standard is definitely not J. INTJs strike me as people who at all times have their bases covered, logically. jefferson didn't.



    what has this to do with being INJ? if anything, it cements him as being P.

    Hmm, it'd interesting if some of the people who actually use MBTI to type people will comment on his traits. Maybe he really was INP but you haven't convinced me.

    The thing about him being gracious, harmony seeking and having a deep understanding of people makes it hard to see him as INTP, much less ENTP.

  5. #45
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    Here is part of my thinking on this, inferior Se under stress:

    Jefferson keeping endless details on his own spending but never applying it to budget himself screams inferior Se.

    And his taste for finer foods and wines aqcuired while in Paris could be inferior Se as well, coming during a period of stress in midlife when inferior functions are becoming stronger.


    infp.globalchatter.com :: Log in


    Quote:
    From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

    Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

    What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)


    Quote:
    Obsessive Focus on External Data

    Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity...


    INTJ woman said, "I can become obsessed by detail. I'm less able to function and make decisions--sort of paralyzed."

    An INFJ said, "I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do tha thing i thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds." "I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly," reported another INFJ. "I nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud."

    ....

    Quote:
    Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

    In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment. In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming "self-centered" and "self-indulgent" when they are in the grip--a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).

    Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.


    ...INTJ feels bad about her overeating but not guilty: "I hate it when people brag about how much they exercise!" she said. ...

  6. #46
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The thing about him being gracious, harmony seeking and having a deep understanding of people makes it hard to see him as INTP, much less ENTP.
    ...you don't seem to understand ENTPs well then. take a look at jenocyde, she's a prime example of an ENTP seeking harmony.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    ...you don't seem to understand ENTPs well then. take a look at jenocyde, she's a prime example of an ENTP seeking harmony.
    She doesn't seem shy of conflict to me.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    She doesn't seem shy of conflict to me.
    harmony and conflict aren't opposites. i claim you can have a harmonious conflict (and also, that it's the best thing ever).
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    harmony and conflict aren't opposites. i claim you can have a harmonious conflict (and also, that it's the best thing ever).
    That wasn't the case with Jefferson, he avoiding pushing important issues because he was too focused on avoiding conflict.

    Jeffersonian Legacies? by Peter S. Onuf

    Passages about Jefferson’s abhorrence for conflict on pp 129-134

    One particular passage on p. 51: As Secretary of State Jefferson had felt free to decry John Adam’s “political heresies” in a letter to Washington but when that letter was published without his consent, Jefferson complained to Washington:

    “I certainly never made a secret of my being anti-monarchial and anti-aristocrat; but I am sincerely mortified to be thus brought forward on the public stage, where to remain, to advance or to retire, will equally against my love of silence and quiet and my abhorrence of dispute.”

    Jefferson was perfectly willing to be frank in private but not in public. Didn't want to deal with the conflicts and loss of harmony.


    P. 182-184

    Dumas Malone(best known for his multi-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson for which he earned the 1975 Pulitzer Prize) states that Jefferson’s “extreme distaste for personal controversy” “was a defect of his politeness and amiability which caused him to seem deceptive.”

    Jefferson didn’t want his Notes on Virginia circulated out of concern that the emancipation issues he raised in them would “produce an irritation.” David Brion Davis wonders “how he expected to encourage the cause of emancipation without producing irritation.” Clearly Jefferson felt more concern over keeping harmony than pushing the cause of emancipation.

  10. #50
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    that would put him in the light of Fe - although that could be a tertiary function, technically. it is also difficult to understand what exactly he classifies as a dispute in contrast to a debate.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

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