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  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Not really that big of a leap, <Ni, Te, Fi, Se> to <Fi, Se, Ni, Te>

    Ni+Te (INTJness) is like a fall back second option (being their second strongest function combo) for ISFP and vice versa.*


    *According to me.
    That may be true, but what I was trying to point out is perhaps an NT/SF bias that I thought I saw there. It just bothered me.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #32
    heart on fire
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    Re: Sentura and his demand for sources and specific example---his charge that I might be lying about my sources because I had listed too many.

    Alexander Hamilton ? by Ron Chernow

    p. 310-323 Detailed descriptions of how Jefferson appeared to many others, detailed descriptions of Jefferson avoiding conflict in Rev war, detailed descriptions of Jefferson allowing others to speak and fight his battles (Madison and Monroe often spoke for him at his request), about how Jefferson was universally seen as gracious, mannerly, quiet)

    p. 450 (tells how Jefferson maligned Hamilton as neurotic, spineless hypochondriac in his Sept 1793 letter to Madison when the truth was Hamilton actually lay near death from Yellow Fever. In the same letter Jefferson also accuses Hamilton of being a military coward when the reverse was actually true. Hamilton had faced battle many times as military officer but Jefferson as Virginia’s governor had hid in the woods when British troops advanced on Virginia.
    Jeffersonian Legacies? by Peter S. Onuf

    Passages about Jefferson’s abhorrence for conflict on pp 129-134

    One particular passage on p. 51: As Secretary of State Jefferson had felt free to decry John Adam’s “political heresies” in a letter to Washington but when that letter was published without his consent, Jefferson complained to Washington:

    “I certainly never made a secret of my being anti-monarchial and anti-aristocrat; but I am sincerely mortified to be thus brought forward on the public stage, where to remain, to advance or to retire, will equally against my love of silence and quiet and my abhorrence of dispute.”

    Jefferson was perfectly willing to be frank in private but not in public. Didn't want to deal with the conflicts and loss of harmony.


    P. 182-184

    Dumas Malone(best known for his multi-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson for which he earned the 1975 Pulitzer Prize) states that Jefferson’s “extreme distaste for personal controversy” “was a defect of his politeness and amiability which caused him to seem deceptive.”

    Jefferson didn’t want his Notes on Virginia circulated out of concern that the emancipation issues he raised in them would “produce an irritation.” David Brion Davis wonders “how he expected to encourage the cause of emancipation without producing irritation.” Clearly Jefferson felt more concern over keeping harmony than pushing the cause of emancipation.

    John Adams? - Page 112 (descriptions of Jefferson from people in his time)
    by David G. McCullough

    p. 319 Jefferson’s compulsive shopping, buying things he could not afford, on things like fine wines, French clothes, books, French cooking….while preaching to his daughter (and others) to never purchase things she didn’t have the money for . Discusses his meticulous records of his spending meanwhile never attempting to cut back. (my comment: All inferior Se coming out under stress? He was often ill during this period)

    p. 320-321 Jefferson abhorred cities and crowds so he tended to live out side the city but he did enjoy theatre, fine foods, shopping etc. Seemed conflicted in this area. Enjoying the benefits of city life but not necessary the throngs of people.

    p. 321 Enjoyed playing chess but once “decisively” beaten at it he did not go back to the chess club.


    Thomas Jefferson: A Chronology of His Thoughts?
    By Thomas Jefferson, Jerry Holmes
    On page 164, a detailed description of Jefferson from his contemporary Margaret Bayard Smith. She describes him as being reserved to the point of being chilling when first making his acquaintance and then he warms and directs the conversation along subjects personally tailored to the interests of the person he is talking to, showing much understanding of interpersonal relations and a willingness and great ability to seek harmony with the person he is conversing with. She describes his voice as soft, almost femininely gentle. Speaks glowingly of his overall graciousness and manners.


    The South
    By B. Clarence Hall, C. T. Wood
    p. 53 How Jefferson’s excessive spending on things like fine wines forced him to sell his library to fend off creditors.

    Thomas Jefferson by Richard B. Berstein

    p. 90-93

    Describes Jefferson as:

    Poor public speaker
    Disliked addressing an audience
    quiet
    indirect
    diplomatic


    Also says Jefferson believed that people were a source of virtue and wisdom. So he wants to see the best in human nature.

    Interestingly enough, on page 80, the author discusses how stressful it was for Jefferson to watch the poor suffer in Paris and the French Rev unfold and then right after that discusses how his time in Paris gave him a lifelong taste for luxuries such as fine wines.


    p. 190 Discusses how Jefferson could not reconcile his admiration for a gentleman free-spending farmer elite with Democratic ideas. More proof of Jefferson not facing unpleasant truths and holes in his own logic.
    The Inner Jefferson by Andrew Burstein

    p. 9

    Burstein describes Jefferson as:
    1. a Master record keeper, especially of his own habits
    2. a political revolutionary with a strong complusion to preserve personal order
    3. a father who espoused the value of self discipline
    4. strove for the predictible in his own life, sensible regulation which would make life durable and free of drama.
    5. To Thomas Jefferson, the pursuit of happiness implied the erection of a sturdy framework--the potiential to be indepedent and creative and above all this meant writing. Jefferson lives a lot of his life in his mind, reading books and writing letters.
    6. A gentleman farmer. Jefferson is quoted: "No occupation is so delightful to me as the culture of the earth, and no culture comparable to the garden." He was an avid gardener and shared much information with Charles Wilson Peale, the Philadelphian artist and museum keeper
    7. an amateur musician and scientist
    8. a wine connoisseur



    Thomas Jefferson also enjoyed sharing passionate ideas from his reading with his two closest confidants Monroe and Madison.



    p. 202 Jefferson described himself as "too desirous of quiet to place myself in the way of contention."

    Author says that Jefferson's response to personal hurts was to weld his pen in response.

    Author says (uses sources to prove it) that Jefferson judged other people firstly by what he sensed in their hearts. He used the term "rotten-hearted" as the highest form of negative judgment.

    Jefferson had a "cosumate knowldege of the human heart" and he also sought to surround himself with "sincere and reasonable (harmony-seeking) companions."

    There is also much to be said of Jefferson on the one hand feeling strongly in support of emancipation yet at the same time his spendthrift ways kept him in a situation where he was dependent on the income his plantation brought in and made him unable to emancipate his own slaves. Further proof of his hiding unpleasant truths from himself and being inner conflicted on important issues


    He also is described over and over as "systematic" in his habits, which seems to support INJ better than ENP.

    Okay, if this isn't enough, I am sure I can produce more as the week progresses. Just let me know.

  3. #33
    Sniffles
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    Jefferson is INJ, and when I have time I'll add onto what heart has said here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Okay, there seems to be this weird thing concerning Grant.

    Whenever I see typings of General Grant, he's an INTJ, however whenever I see typings of President Grant, he's and ISFP.

    Did he get hit on the head really hard between the two careers? Because that's kind of a drastic change.
    Yes I notice that as well. Rather odd really, I can't think of anyother person that this happens to. I can certainly say that General Grant was indeed an INTJ. He had a far better grasp of grand stratgey than his rival Robert E. Lee.

  4. #34
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    an INJ with Ne? i seriously doubt it. i argue that if he was INJ, he would:

    a) show more Ni in his behavior (and not drifting Ne)
    b) be more organized and less of a jack-of-all-trades (he was multi-faceted; i don't believe J's would ever be able to have that)

    for most of your quotes, it seems he would have either some sort of vice or a double standard. i doubt a J would have the same:

    The South
    By B. Clarence Hall, C. T. Wood
    p. 53 How Jefferson’s excessive spending on things like fine wines forced him to sell his library to fend off creditors.
    natural P. a J would definitely have foreseen this and either kept himself from being impulsive or devised a plan to work things out.

    p. 319 Jefferson’s compulsive shopping, buying things he could not afford, on things like fine wines, French clothes, books, French cooking….while preaching to his daughter (and others) to never purchase things she didn’t have the money for . Discusses his meticulous records of his spending meanwhile never attempting to cut back.
    impulsive behavior is P. having a double standard is definitely not J. INTJs strike me as people who at all times have their bases covered, logically. jefferson didn't.

    There is also much to be said of Jefferson on the one hand feeling strongly in support of emancipation yet at the same time his spendthrift ways kept him in a situation where he was dependent on the income his plantation brought in and made him unable to emancipate his own slaves. Further proof of his hiding unpleasant truths from himself and being inner conflicted on important issues
    what has this to do with being INJ? if anything, it cements him as being P.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  5. #35
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Fun, looks like very good choices, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamon Sugar View Post
    Woodrow Wilson - IXTX
    I never see much discussion about Wilson's type. I wonder, what are people's thoughts about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamon Sugar View Post
    John Adams - INTJ. Maybe INTP.
    Usually he's listed as some kind of ETJ. Lately, I've been thinking ESTJ fits him.
    Martin Van Buren - ESFP?
    Quite possible. They say he was a master politician. Maybe he was great at dealing and talking with people.
    William Henry Harrison - ESFP?
    You going by his choice to not wear his coat during the freezing, nasty weather at his inauguration? Or by his military career?
    John Tyler - INTJ?
    Very interesting, sounds like a very strong possibility. People taken completely by surprise when his ideas become known. So his "plans" and ideas seem ordered and structured to you, versus something like ISTP?
    James K. Polk - ISTJ?
    Another interesting choice. His accomplishing everything he set out to do, his bringing "Manifest Destiny" for which the public had called (mostly society's idea, or just his?)
    Zachary Taylor - ISFX
    Millard Fillmore - ISTP?
    Franklin Pierce - EXFX
    James Buchanan - ESXP?
    Somehow, I think an ESXP would have made a stronger impact (see list at the bottom of my post)...even though it was difficult at that time to make any impact that would be remembered.
    Abraham Lincoln - INTP
    Andrew Johnson - ISTJ
    Ulysses S. Grant - ISFX
    Rutherford B. Hayes - ESXP
    Why do you choose this? Because he "ended Reconstruction" of the South? Or wasn't that just brokering an election?
    James Garfield - ESFX
    Chester A. Arthur - XXFP
    Grover Cleveland - ESTX?
    Benjamin Harrison - IXTJ
    William McKinley - ISFX
    William Howard Taft - XSFJ

    Warren Harding - XXFP
    Calvin Coolidge - IXTJ
    Herbert Hoover - ISTX

    Harry S Truman - ISTJ
    Dwight D. Eisenhower - EXTJ
    Lyndon B. Johnson - ESTX
    Richard M. Nixon - ISTJ
    Most people seem to agree on the TJ for him. I don't think he's ISTJ, though. He had a lot of surprises and innovation...(even in a different way than James Polk or Andrew Johnson)
    Gerald Ford - ISFX
    Jimmy Carter - ISFJ. Maybe INFJ.
    George H.W. Bush - ISTJ. Maybe ISFJ.
    Bill Clinton - ESFP
    George W. Bush - ESXP
    And the men listed below are fun to compare. The great "Personalities" of the presidency:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamon Sugar View Post
    Andrew Jackson - ESTP
    Theodore Roosevelt - ESTP
    Franklin D. Roosevelt - ESTP
    John F. Kennedy - ESTP
    Ronald Reagan - ESFP

  6. #36
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    b) be more organized and less of a jack-of-all-trades (he was multi-faceted; i don't believe J's would ever be able to have that)
    That's complete nonsense. INJs can be as much jacks of all trades, abeit in a different manner than Ne people. I put forth myself as an example of such. I'm literally overwhelmed by the myriad of interests and ideas that bombard my mind, not to mention contemplating the cosmic unity between them all.

  7. #37
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's complete nonsense. INJs can be as much jacks of all trades, abeit in a different manner than Ne people. I put forth myself as an example of such. I'm literally overwhelmed by the myriad of interests and ideas that bombard my mind, not to mention contemplating the cosmic unity between them all.
    it's not just being bombarded by ideas, it's also about being able to execute them all little by little. but hey, be the J that is the exception to the rule. i haven't found one yet.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  8. #38
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    it's not just being bombarded by ideas, it's also about being able to execute them all little by little.
    That rules out J because?

    but hey, be the J that is the exception to the rule. i haven't found one yet.
    Maybe you need to read up on more INJs.

  9. #39
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That rules out J because?
    it doesn't. i'm not ruling them out, but i'm basing this on that i have no sufficient evidence to see that kind of behavior among Js (especially INJs).
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  10. #40
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    it doesn't. i'm not ruling them out, but i'm basing this on that i have no sufficient evidence to see that kind of behavior among Js (especially INJs).
    In other words, you don't have a real reason.

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