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Types of all the U.S. Presidents

BlackCat

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and i love to be alone, yet i am E. what gives?

Well you just disproved the quote... Socializing =/= E. Being outwardly focused = E. Inwardly focused = I.
 

Sentura

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Jefferson is often described as:

Never blunt or assertive
Almost always appealingly gracious
Always bearing a slight ambiguousness about his positions
abhorred dispute
polite, soft spoken, diplomatic
In Congress he often let Madison or Monroe do his speaking/debating for him.
Very little sense of humor
"sparkled" in private conversation
Trouble with over spending
Hid from unpleasant truths
Could be hypocritical
Could be vindictive

source please
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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ENFJ
Jefferson is often described as:

Never blunt or assertive
Almost always appealingly gracious
Always bearing a slight ambiguousness about his positions
abhorred dispute
polite, soft spoken, diplomatic
In Congress he often let Madison or Monroe do his speaking/debating for him.
Very little sense of humor
"sparkled" in private conversation
Trouble with over spending
Hid from unpleasant truths
Could be hypocritical
Could be vindictive


How many ENTP would ever be desrcibed by others as abhorring dispute?

INFP?
 

Sentura

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Well you just disproved the quote... Socializing =/= E. Being outwardly focused = E. Inwardly focused = I.

i just don't have sufficient evidence to prove that he was introverted. so instead i look at his function order, and his Ne seems to be above his Ti. in MBTI, that would constitute as ENTP.
 

heart

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source please

Thomas Jefferson: A Chronology of His Thoughts‎ By Thomas Jefferson, Jerry Holmes

Thomas Jefferson: A Character Sketch By Edward Sylvester Ellis

Jeffersonian Legacies‎ by Peter S. Onuf

Thomas Jefferson by Richard B. Berstein

The Inner Jefferson: Portrait of a Grieving Optimist‎ by Andrew Burstein

The Lost World of Thomas Jefferson by Daniel J. Boorstin

John Adams‎ by David G. McCullough

Alexander Hamilton ‎ by Ron Chernow

Fallen Founder: The Life of Aaron Burr by Nancy Isenberg

A Perfect Union: Dolley Madison and the Creation of the American Nation‎ by Catherine Allgor

Founding Mothers: The Women Who Raised Our Nation by Cokie Roberts

These Fiery Frenchified Dames By Susan Branson
 

Sentura

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Thomas Jefferson: A Chronology of His Thoughts‎ By Thomas Jefferson, Jerry Holmes

Thomas Jefferson: A Character Sketch By Edward Sylvester Ellis

John Adams‎ by David G. McCullough

Jeffersonian Legacies‎ by Peter S. Onuf

Thomas Jefferson by Richard B. Berstein

The Inner Jefferson: Portrait of a Grieving Optimist‎ by Andrew Burstein

Alexander Hamilton ‎ by Ron Chernow

Fallen Founder: The Life of Aaron Burr by Nancy Isenberg

The Lost World of Thomas Jefferson by Daniel J. Boorstin

A Perfect Union: Dolley Madison and the Creation of the American Nation‎ by Catherine Allgor

Founding Mothers: The Women Who Raised Our Nation by Cokie Roberts

These Fiery Frenchified Dames By Susan Branson

you read all of those and got less than 100 words?

normally i wouldn't suspect people of lying to prove their own statements, but i'd reckon you just picked all of those because you knew i wouldn't bother going to the library to read every page of every single one of them to see whether you statements are true or not. besides, if you read all of those, i'd bet there are some good anecdotes in the very least a few of them that you could cite for your own claim, instead of just coming with vague general characteristics.
 

heart

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you read all of those and got less than 100 words?

You really want an essay paper on Jefferson's personality? :huh: Most people on here complain about long posts and here I was trying to be concise.

normally i wouldn't suspect people of lying to prove their own statements, but i'd reckon you just picked all of those because you knew i wouldn't bother going to the library to read every page of every single one of them to see whether you statements are true or not.

You don't have to read every single page or every single book. I just listed some of the books I have read which talk about Jefferson. Several people here have read some of these books and they could easily catch me on any "lies" I told. :rolleyes:

Anyway don't you know how to use an index? Or is it that you really don't have any true interest in Thomas Jefferson? He's a fascinating personality to study.

besides, if you read all of those, i'd bet there are some good anecdotes in the very least a few of them that you could cite for your own claim, instead of just coming with vague general characteristics.

So now you want me to type out quotes from the books? And then even when I do, you will still accuse me of not having cited enough sources?

Maybe I will type some of the quotes out over the course of this week. I've got housework and other stuff to do right now.
 

Sentura

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You really want an essay paper on Jefferson's personality? :huh: Most people on here complain about long posts and here I was trying to be concise.

especially when quoting vague generalizations from a huge number of books!

Anyway don't you know how to use an index? Or is it that you really don't have any true interest in Thomas Jefferson? He's a fascinating personality to study.

i study till i have enough data. i don't see why i should keep going through numerous volumes just to further confirm my results. what made me be skeptic was definitely the number of books you blurted out.

So now you want me to type out quotes from the books? And then even when I do, you will still accuse me of not having cited enough sources?

i will take your word for it. i promise.

Maybe I will type some of the quotes out over the course of this week. I've got housework and other stuff to do right now.

i'll be right here, watching the kids and reminiscing about my youth. the darn youngins are wild. no, back in my day...
 

Quinlan

Intriguing....
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Okay, there seems to be this weird thing concerning Grant.

Whenever I see typings of General Grant, he's an INTJ, however whenever I see typings of President Grant, he's and ISFP.

Did he get hit on the head really hard between the two careers? Because that's kind of a drastic change.

Not really that big of a leap, <Ni, Te, Fi, Se> to <Fi, Se, Ni, Te>

Ni+Te (INTJness) is like a fall back second option (being their second strongest function combo) for ISFP and vice versa.*


*According to me.
 

heart

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especially when quoting vague generalizations from a huge number of books!

i study till i have enough data. i don't see why i should keep going through numerous volumes just to further confirm my results. what made me be skeptic was definitely the number of books you blurted out..

You asked me where I got my information on Jefferson's personality traits, I shared my reading list on Jefferson. That wasn't good enough for you, so now you're attempting to say I am lying. So I am totally confused about what you want. I think you're just being disingenous.

So the more books one has read on a topic, the more you distrust what they say? Odd way to look at the world.

If ask me about Nixon or Clinton or Bush, I have read zero books on them but I've read a lot on Jefferson, because of the time period he lived in and he being one of the more fascinating figures in a fascinating time period. I read everything I can get my hands on about the 1700s, sorry if that offends the way you think people *should* collect their information. :rolleyes:

But as I said, you needn't read every single page of every single book. Do you know how to use an index?
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Not really that big of a leap, <Ni, Te, Fi, Se> to <Fi, Se, Ni, Te>

Ni+Te (INTJness) is like a fall back second option (being their second strongest function combo) for ISFP and vice versa.*


*According to me.

That may be true, but what I was trying to point out is perhaps an NT/SF bias that I thought I saw there. It just bothered me.
 

heart

heart on fire
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Re: Sentura and his demand for sources and specific example---his charge that I might be lying about my sources because I had listed too many. :rolleyes:

Alexander Hamilton ‎ by Ron Chernow

p. 310-323 Detailed descriptions of how Jefferson appeared to many others, detailed descriptions of Jefferson avoiding conflict in Rev war, detailed descriptions of Jefferson allowing others to speak and fight his battles (Madison and Monroe often spoke for him at his request), about how Jefferson was universally seen as gracious, mannerly, quiet)

p. 450 (tells how Jefferson maligned Hamilton as neurotic, spineless hypochondriac in his Sept 1793 letter to Madison when the truth was Hamilton actually lay near death from Yellow Fever. In the same letter Jefferson also accuses Hamilton of being a military coward when the reverse was actually true. Hamilton had faced battle many times as military officer but Jefferson as Virginia’s governor had hid in the woods when British troops advanced on Virginia.

Jeffersonian Legacies‎ by Peter S. Onuf

Passages about Jefferson’s abhorrence for conflict on pp 129-134

One particular passage on p. 51: As Secretary of State Jefferson had felt free to decry John Adam’s “political heresies” in a letter to Washington but when that letter was published without his consent, Jefferson complained to Washington:

“I certainly never made a secret of my being anti-monarchial and anti-aristocrat; but I am sincerely mortified to be thus brought forward on the public stage, where to remain, to advance or to retire, will equally against my love of silence and quiet and my abhorrence of dispute.”

Jefferson was perfectly willing to be frank in private but not in public. Didn't want to deal with the conflicts and loss of harmony.


P. 182-184

Dumas Malone(best known for his multi-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson for which he earned the 1975 Pulitzer Prize) states that Jefferson’s “extreme distaste for personal controversy” “was a defect of his politeness and amiability which caused him to seem deceptive.”

Jefferson didn’t want his Notes on Virginia circulated out of concern that the emancipation issues he raised in them would “produce an irritation.” David Brion Davis wonders “how he expected to encourage the cause of emancipation without producing irritation.” Clearly Jefferson felt more concern over keeping harmony than pushing the cause of emancipation.


John Adams‎ - Page 112 (descriptions of Jefferson from people in his time)
by David G. McCullough

p. 319 Jefferson’s compulsive shopping, buying things he could not afford, on things like fine wines, French clothes, books, French cooking….while preaching to his daughter (and others) to never purchase things she didn’t have the money for . Discusses his meticulous records of his spending meanwhile never attempting to cut back. (my comment: All inferior Se coming out under stress? He was often ill during this period)

p. 320-321 Jefferson abhorred cities and crowds so he tended to live out side the city but he did enjoy theatre, fine foods, shopping etc. Seemed conflicted in this area. Enjoying the benefits of city life but not necessary the throngs of people.

p. 321 Enjoyed playing chess but once “decisively” beaten at it he did not go back to the chess club.


Thomas Jefferson: A Chronology of His Thoughts‎
By Thomas Jefferson, Jerry Holmes
On page 164, a detailed description of Jefferson from his contemporary Margaret Bayard Smith. She describes him as being reserved to the point of being chilling when first making his acquaintance and then he warms and directs the conversation along subjects personally tailored to the interests of the person he is talking to, showing much understanding of interpersonal relations and a willingness and great ability to seek harmony with the person he is conversing with. She describes his voice as soft, almost femininely gentle. Speaks glowingly of his overall graciousness and manners.



The South
By B. Clarence Hall, C. T. Wood
p. 53 How Jefferson’s excessive spending on things like fine wines forced him to sell his library to fend off creditors.


Thomas Jefferson by Richard B. Berstein

p. 90-93

Describes Jefferson as:

Poor public speaker
Disliked addressing an audience
quiet
indirect
diplomatic


Also says Jefferson believed that people were a source of virtue and wisdom. So he wants to see the best in human nature.

Interestingly enough, on page 80, the author discusses how stressful it was for Jefferson to watch the poor suffer in Paris and the French Rev unfold and then right after that discusses how his time in Paris gave him a lifelong taste for luxuries such as fine wines.


p. 190 Discusses how Jefferson could not reconcile his admiration for a gentleman free-spending farmer elite with Democratic ideas. More proof of Jefferson not facing unpleasant truths and holes in his own logic.

The Inner Jefferson by Andrew Burstein

p. 9

Burstein describes Jefferson as:
1. a Master record keeper, especially of his own habits
2. a political revolutionary with a strong complusion to preserve personal order
3. a father who espoused the value of self discipline
4. strove for the predictible in his own life, sensible regulation which would make life durable and free of drama.
5. To Thomas Jefferson, the pursuit of happiness implied the erection of a sturdy framework--the potiential to be indepedent and creative and above all this meant writing. Jefferson lives a lot of his life in his mind, reading books and writing letters.
6. A gentleman farmer. Jefferson is quoted: "No occupation is so delightful to me as the culture of the earth, and no culture comparable to the garden." He was an avid gardener and shared much information with Charles Wilson Peale, the Philadelphian artist and museum keeper
7. an amateur musician and scientist
8. a wine connoisseur



Thomas Jefferson also enjoyed sharing passionate ideas from his reading with his two closest confidants Monroe and Madison.



p. 202 Jefferson described himself as "too desirous of quiet to place myself in the way of contention."

Author says that Jefferson's response to personal hurts was to weld his pen in response.

Author says (uses sources to prove it) that Jefferson judged other people firstly by what he sensed in their hearts. He used the term "rotten-hearted" as the highest form of negative judgment.

Jefferson had a "cosumate knowldege of the human heart" and he also sought to surround himself with "sincere and reasonable (harmony-seeking) companions."


There is also much to be said of Jefferson on the one hand feeling strongly in support of emancipation yet at the same time his spendthrift ways kept him in a situation where he was dependent on the income his plantation brought in and made him unable to emancipate his own slaves. Further proof of his hiding unpleasant truths from himself and being inner conflicted on important issues


He also is described over and over as "systematic" in his habits, which seems to support INJ better than ENP.

Okay, if this isn't enough, I am sure I can produce more as the week progresses. Just let me know. :newwink:
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
Jefferson is INJ, and when I have time I'll add onto what heart has said here.

Okay, there seems to be this weird thing concerning Grant.

Whenever I see typings of General Grant, he's an INTJ, however whenever I see typings of President Grant, he's and ISFP.

Did he get hit on the head really hard between the two careers? Because that's kind of a drastic change.

Yes I notice that as well. Rather odd really, I can't think of anyother person that this happens to. I can certainly say that General Grant was indeed an INTJ. He had a far better grasp of grand stratgey than his rival Robert E. Lee.
 

Sentura

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an INJ with Ne? i seriously doubt it. i argue that if he was INJ, he would:

a) show more Ni in his behavior (and not drifting Ne)
b) be more organized and less of a jack-of-all-trades (he was multi-faceted; i don't believe J's would ever be able to have that)

for most of your quotes, it seems he would have either some sort of vice or a double standard. i doubt a J would have the same:

The South
By B. Clarence Hall, C. T. Wood
p. 53 How Jefferson’s excessive spending on things like fine wines forced him to sell his library to fend off creditors.

natural P. a J would definitely have foreseen this and either kept himself from being impulsive or devised a plan to work things out.

p. 319 Jefferson’s compulsive shopping, buying things he could not afford, on things like fine wines, French clothes, books, French cooking….while preaching to his daughter (and others) to never purchase things she didn’t have the money for . Discusses his meticulous records of his spending meanwhile never attempting to cut back.

impulsive behavior is P. having a double standard is definitely not J. INTJs strike me as people who at all times have their bases covered, logically. jefferson didn't.

There is also much to be said of Jefferson on the one hand feeling strongly in support of emancipation yet at the same time his spendthrift ways kept him in a situation where he was dependent on the income his plantation brought in and made him unable to emancipate his own slaves. Further proof of his hiding unpleasant truths from himself and being inner conflicted on important issues

what has this to do with being INJ? if anything, it cements him as being P.
 

Cimarron

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Fun, looks like very good choices, too.

Woodrow Wilson - IXTX
I never see much discussion about Wilson's type. I wonder, what are people's thoughts about it?

John Adams - INTJ. Maybe INTP.
Usually he's listed as some kind of ETJ. Lately, I've been thinking ESTJ fits him.
Martin Van Buren - ESFP?
Quite possible. They say he was a master politician. Maybe he was great at dealing and talking with people.
William Henry Harrison - ESFP?
You going by his choice to not wear his coat during the freezing, nasty weather at his inauguration? :D Or by his military career?
John Tyler - INTJ?
Very interesting, sounds like a very strong possibility. People taken completely by surprise when his ideas become known. So his "plans" and ideas seem ordered and structured to you, versus something like ISTP?
James K. Polk - ISTJ?
Another interesting choice. His accomplishing everything he set out to do, his bringing "Manifest Destiny" for which the public had called (mostly society's idea, or just his?)
Zachary Taylor - ISFX
Millard Fillmore - ISTP?
Franklin Pierce - EXFX
James Buchanan - ESXP?
Somehow, I think an ESXP would have made a stronger impact (see list at the bottom of my post)...even though it was difficult at that time to make any impact that would be remembered.
Abraham Lincoln - INTP
Andrew Johnson - ISTJ
Ulysses S. Grant - ISFX
Rutherford B. Hayes - ESXP
Why do you choose this? Because he "ended Reconstruction" of the South? Or wasn't that just brokering an election?
James Garfield - ESFX
Chester A. Arthur - XXFP
Grover Cleveland - ESTX?
Benjamin Harrison - IXTJ
William McKinley - ISFX
William Howard Taft - XSFJ

Warren Harding - XXFP
Calvin Coolidge - IXTJ
Herbert Hoover - ISTX

Harry S Truman - ISTJ
Dwight D. Eisenhower - EXTJ
Lyndon B. Johnson - ESTX
Richard M. Nixon - ISTJ
Most people seem to agree on the TJ for him. I don't think he's ISTJ, though. He had a lot of surprises and innovation...(even in a different way than James Polk or Andrew Johnson)
Gerald Ford - ISFX
Jimmy Carter - ISFJ. Maybe INFJ.
George H.W. Bush - ISTJ. Maybe ISFJ.
Bill Clinton - ESFP
George W. Bush - ESXP

And the men listed below are fun to compare. The great "Personalities" of the presidency:
Andrew Jackson - ESTP
Theodore Roosevelt - ESTP
Franklin D. Roosevelt - ESTP
John F. Kennedy - ESTP
Ronald Reagan - ESFP
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
b) be more organized and less of a jack-of-all-trades (he was multi-faceted; i don't believe J's would ever be able to have that)

That's complete nonsense. INJs can be as much jacks of all trades, abeit in a different manner than Ne people. I put forth myself as an example of such. I'm literally overwhelmed by the myriad of interests and ideas that bombard my mind, not to mention contemplating the cosmic unity between them all.
 

Sentura

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That's complete nonsense. INJs can be as much jacks of all trades, abeit in a different manner than Ne people. I put forth myself as an example of such. I'm literally overwhelmed by the myriad of interests and ideas that bombard my mind, not to mention contemplating the cosmic unity between them all.

it's not just being bombarded by ideas, it's also about being able to execute them all little by little. but hey, be the J that is the exception to the rule. i haven't found one yet.
 

Sentura

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That rules out J because?

it doesn't. i'm not ruling them out, but i'm basing this on that i have no sufficient evidence to see that kind of behavior among Js (especially INJs).
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
it doesn't. i'm not ruling them out, but i'm basing this on that i have no sufficient evidence to see that kind of behavior among Js (especially INJs).

In other words, you don't have a real reason.
 
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