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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Teddy Roosevelt was an ESTP. Pretty sure ESTPs can get asthma.
    Myself and the other poster have definitely supplied reasons beyond that. if that's the only point you can pick apart, then my logic must be pretty sound

  2. #132
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    Well this was a hotter topic than I imagined it would be haha. I figured this thread would hibernate another year.

    I hope this debate doesn't die. This is a fun topic, plus I love being on the underdog side of things.

    First of all, I'd like to thank the poster 'Shudder' for cleaning up the B.S. on aisle 13 that Emotionalogic spilled. I think you hit all the important things that needed to be mentioned. For instance, I definitely didn't like being accused of 'anti-sensor bias' for just using common sense. I figured stating that innovation is more often an N thing than S would be considered stating the obvious, not being 'biased' haha. It's not like I was giving all the iNtuitives ice cream and handing out dunce hats to the Sensors. I was just stating a trait commonly associated with Ns, especially NTs.

    Secondly, I notice my asthma comment seems to have confused somebody (msg_v2). I wasn't saying ESTPs couldn't have asthma. Allow me to expand for you: What I was saying is, as a child, TR was asthmatic and sickly. He wasn't very active, but he says he made up for it by being an 'imaginative temperament', I believe were his words. Here's an excerpt from a biography by Edmund Morris:

    "..Since puberty he had taught himself to pluck the flower of safety out of the nettle of danger. Although his physical courage was by now legendary, it was not a natural endowment. He had been a timid child in New York City, cut off from schoolboy society by illness, wealth, and private tutors. Inspired by a leonine father, he had labored with weights to build up his strength. Simultaneously, he had built up his courage 'by sheer dint of practicing fearlessness'.."

    The point I was making is he was naturally more of an NT than an SP. His SP traits were learned later on, in response to a sheltered childhood.

    Now we all know that any person with any MBTI type can act however they want. Nothing is by the book. Hell, MBTI is nothing more than a fun theory, really haha. I guess it just depends on whether you type people based on how they are innately vs. how they are outwardly in response to their environment. I like to use a little of both.





    No hard feelings to anyone, by the way. If I say anything rude, know that I'm (mostly) just kidding.

  3. #133
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    ..I guess it's hibernation time for this thread lol. I had a feeling it would die just as it was getting good. Its a shame. I like debates like this, too. I dunno if I totally agree with you on ENTP, but I'd say he was naturally more of an NT than SP. ESTP seemed more like the type of his public image than the type of his actual inner workings. Just like "an ESTP can have asthma", an ENTP can be a daredevil manly man. He was a definite enneagram 7w8, regardless.


    EDIT: Actually, if we go by common enneagram/mbti combos, ENTP is probably correct. The one thing I'm sure of is that he's definitely 7w8, and 7w8s are way more often ENTPs than ENTJs.

  4. #134
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    Teddy and Franklin were both ESTP. Their lifestyles attest to that. A sensor is someone who is not content with envisioning a future but the here and now, and Teddy engaged directly with nature throughout his life. That typically isn't found in the intuitive types who engage more in theory rather than hands-on experience. Franklin according to the celebrity type website once said he wanted a job that involved lots of travel and direct contact with different locales. He's an ESTP.

    Some of the presidents we don't have a lot of information on. The big ones: Lincoln (INTP), John Adams (INTJ), Thomas Jefferson (INFJ), Washington (ISTJ), Roosevelts (both ESTP). There have been quite a lot of ESTP presidents, actually. I don't think there's ever been an ENTJ president, to my recollection.
    "In Heaven, everything is fine." - The Lady in the Radiator

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylord View Post
    Teddy and Franklin were both ESTP. Their lifestyles attest to that. A sensor is someone who is not content with envisioning a future but the here and now, and Teddy engaged directly with nature throughout his life. That typically isn't found in the intuitive types who engage more in theory rather than hands-on experience. Franklin according to the celebrity type website once said he wanted a job that involved lots of travel and direct contact with different locales. He's an ESTP.

    Some of the presidents we don't have a lot of information on. The big ones: Lincoln (INTP), John Adams (INTJ), Thomas Jefferson (INFJ), Washington (ISTJ), Roosevelts (both ESTP). There have been quite a lot of ESTP presidents, actually. I don't think there's ever been an ENTJ president, to my recollection.
    I honestly don't agree with your assessment of his goals and life being about here and now. So much of his political ideology and ideas were very, very future oriented.

    I know it isn't typically found in iNtuitive types, but my argument is that TR wasnt the typical iNtuitive. Anyone who reads up even a little about his upbringing knows that he wasn't naturally a 'take action' kind of guy. Like the poster above that cited one of his biographies pointed out, TR went out of his way to become a active person because of how masculine his father was. He had to train himself to be fearless, little by little. On the flip side, he saw himself as very imaginative little boy and read an overwhelming amount of books. That habit stayed with him throughout his whole life. He went on to write over 35 books (43, i believe) on many subjects, like politics and the west. I'm not saying an ESTP can't enjoy reading and writing, but being the here/now/action type that they are, they'd probably rather do something else.

    Besides, if we're typing on what 'typically' is known about types, one could point out that he liked politics WAY more than the typical SP. There have been polls and censuses taken that show that the SP temperament are the temperament least interested in politics. Heck, look through some of the more SP ish presidents. Many of them detested playing the political game because it got in the way of their immediate goals. If you read through a bio or two on TR, however, you'll see that he very much enjoyed it and saw (and treated) politics as a game of strategy. That's 'typically' a very NT way to look at something.

    I'm not totally ruling out the notion that he's ESTP, i'm just saying that it's not as clear cut as many like to assume. Considering a lot of his image and life was influenced by his feeling that he must be the larger-than-life man his father was, saying he's ESTP because of his sense of adventure and masculinity could be likened to saying Michael Jackson was an ESFP because he was influenced to be the super performer that he was. We all know he was actually more of an INFP below the surface.




    EDIT: Holy crap, i wrote a novel lol.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    /TR went out of his way to become a active person because of how masculine his father was. He had to train himself to be fearless, little by little. On the flip side, he saw himself as very imaginative little boy and read an overwhelming amount of books. That habit stayed with him throughout his whole life. He went on to write over 35 books (43, i believe) on many subjects, like politics and the west. I'm not saying an ESTP can't enjoy reading and writing, but being the here/now/action type that they are, they'd probably rather do something else.
    Your problem is that you speak in stereotypes. It is stereotypical to think sensing types never read (reading is an action you know) and that intuitive types are the readers of the personality tree. My INFJ sister doesn't even read books. Yet there's no denying that she is a classic INFJ in every other regard. People don't strictly have a behavior they follow just because they are a certain type. What is more realistic is to say that chances are they will adapt this way of doing things, or that way.
    "In Heaven, everything is fine." - The Lady in the Radiator

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylord View Post
    Your problem is that you speak in stereotypes. It is stereotypical to think sensing types never read (reading is an action you know) and that intuitive types are the readers of the personality tree. My INFJ sister doesn't even read books. Yet there's no denying that she is a classic INFJ in every other regard. People don't strictly have a behavior they follow just because they are a certain type. What is more realistic is to say that chances are they will adapt this way of doing things, or that way.

    ...how is what i said above any more stereotypical than you typing him ESTP with the reasoning that he 'engaged directly with nature'? My INTJ dad is huge on nature.

    I'm not calling you out on being stereotypical and acting like i'm a saint. I'm just stating that typing someone is (by it's nature) going to be heavily based on stereotypes and typical occurrences. Telling me TR is an SP because he connected directly with nature is no better or worse than me saying he's NT because he was heavily into reading and writing from the age of 7 til the age he died. Your stereotype is no more true or false than mine. To brush off my main point based solely on an accusation of being 'too stereotypical in a stereotype-based conversation' sounds deflective. It's almost as if you didn't want to acknowledge what I pointed out.

  8. #138
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    who said ESTP's can't get asthma?

    I have asthma.

    Andrew Jackson

    ESTP

    clinically insane.


  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    who said ESTP's can't get asthma?

    I have asthma.

    Andrew Jackson

    ESTP

    clinically insane.

    ..nobody said that haha. did you read past that point? The overall point becomes pretty clear.

  10. #140
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    lol. well I certainly hope someone did because that's pretty bad. lmao

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