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Freud/Jung's Type

SolitaryWalker

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Yes, I thought Freud was an S. He's quite the empiricist, who then adds a great deal of pseudo-N talk to the data. (He started out as a hardcore data collect for... what was it... hysterectomy patients?)

Many of his ideas seem to be comprised of bits and pieces of data taken from his research but then connected in illogical or inconclusive ways and treated conclusively. N's tend to start with a framework and piece data into it.

I'd at least give him a TJ rating.


I dont think that being an empiricist has anything to do with being a Sensors. John Locke was a radical empiricist, he thought that we are born with an empty mind to begin with, yet his philosophy was very abstract. As a man he was also highly Intuitive. Locke was an INTJ.

So was Freud. Freud's imagination worked in a way to discover realms of the mind that seem otherworldly. The unconscious. The empiricist and authority oriented aspects of his thought are better connected with his Te mindset. Though clearly, he was quite the visionary, as his Intuition was preponderous over his Extroverted Thinking. He was a natural brainstormer and his mind would never want to dismiss anything, regardless of how ludicrous it may seem on the surface. Yet much like a typical INJ, whilst he very much takes many of those seemingly bizarre ideas seriously, externally he has to make a judgment, and hence this makes him seem like he is dismissing ideas that he is actually dwelling on for the sake of working his imagination. Thats the difference between an INTJ and an INTP. Both enjoy exploring complex ideas, INTJs tend to do this for the sake of imagination, whilst INTPs have clear-cut problems to solve and are more focused in this regard.
 

Totenkindly

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I might sound foolish, and have not done enough research to command details as you have, nor do I have time right now... but this is a case to me where experience trumps theory.

Freud does not match up with what my intuition is telling me an intuitive "looks like."

So I'm logging a protest against N, hopefully to be revisited later when I have the time and motivation to explore him further.
 

SolitaryWalker

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No that's a good point. There was a precedent set. I don't think that significantly changes what i was saying. My hypothesis of Freud's contributions in working with the subconscious implying iNtuition isn't significantly different if his contribution was less unprecendented.



I realized that while in the shower. My familiarity is greater with MBTI than Jung. What stands out to me from what i know is that Ti is a process of selecting the most accurate axioms and then forming the most ideal thought based on rigorous logic and the dismissal of everything that doesn't stand the test of scruntiny.

What i've read of Jung so far is that he tends to embrace a wide range of things, is drawn towards the most subjective of systems, seeks to embrace and then form connections. That is my thought process which i have understood is N based. I wonder if Jung is Ti dominant, what would Ni dominant look like if not like Jung? I'm certainly not going to suggest he's different than he claims, but it does lessen the role of logic and dismissal as an important aspect of Ti. I think the idea of INTP must have evolved since his time?


Ha. Well that settles it. Isn't there a great big red tag on that folder that reads INFJ? Btw i think Ghandi, Marilyn Manson, Robert Deniro, and Bambi are also in that folder.

The idea of an INTP couldnt have evolved. Maybe the symbol of an INTP has evolved, but ideas in themselves are not corruptible. Perhaps INTP was the notation Jung used to express what we call Ni-Te, but that is highly unlikely based on the writings he left in Psychological Types. He referred to each of those functions by labels that we apply now, and described them in a way we today describe our functions.

Jung first established the most sound premises for his inquiry, and then he would go on to brainstorm. Jung rarely approached subjective notions for their own end as the INJs would, but only as means to the end of solidifying his axioms. Moreover, the way the MBTI system was designed seems like manifest work of Ti-Ne. First he starts with the 16 core entities, out of which springs the rest of the edifice. Ni would first collect all the information and take Intuitive leaps to find the most congenial, and only later arrive at a solid station to stand by. In this respect the Ni-Te is much less orderly than Ti and Ne, and if there is one merit that Jung as a thinker had, it would be precision of thought. Freud'd exposition seemed to be a lot more loose, and in sharp contrast to Jung he seemed to exploring ideas just for the sake of imagination alone, whilst Jung almost always had a clear-cut problem to solve. Moreover, Jung could explain the most intricate of ideas he was pondering to others, whilst Freud was unable to because he was too deeply steeped in his imagination. In other words, Jung kept his exploration of esoteric ideas in check by consistently applying logical analysis, whilst Freud lapsed into subjectivism. An INTP would abhor such a mindset as bringing logical order is more important to the INTP than exploration of ideas.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I might sound foolish, and have not done enough research to command details as you have, nor do I have time right now... but this is a case to me where experience trumps theory.

Freud does not match up with what my intuition is telling me an intuitive "looks like."

So I'm logging a protest against N, hopefully to be revisited later when I have the time and motivation to explore him further.


You dont make decisions on such matters based on Intuitions, only through critical analysis. (Ti). T is the decision making function (judging), not N..
 

Totenkindly

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You dont make decisions on such matters based on Intuitions, only through critical analysis. (Ti). T is the decision making function (judging), not N..

<eyeroll>

Fine.

Then my Ti is telling me that there's a better chance my internal rolodex is more accurate than your purely linear and theoretical argument based on impersonal principles... especially because I'm dealing with the psychological "image" of the actual people directly, not with a once-removed descriptive paragraph of their general behaviors.

Put another way, I don't need to create a complicated argument about why a duck is a duck. I can just look at the duck and say, "Hey, it looks like a duck."
 

heart

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<Put another way, I don't need to create a complicated argument about why a duck is a duck. I can just look at the duck and say, "Hey, it looks like a duck."

That sounds so INFP. :D

I tend to think Freud was INTJ because of his...ahem....sexual problems. :violin:


ETA. I am just kidding, using the INTP accusation that INTJ spend more time thinking about sex than having sex.
 

Totenkindly

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That sounds so INFP. :D

And it can also be very common-sense SJ! (That's the beauty of it.)

[Actually, now I'm feeling uncomfortable having said it, because I still prefer to have an argument support things. But at least perhaps it stirred things up.]
 

heart

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And it can also be very common-sense SJ! (That's the beauty of it.)

[Actually, now I'm feeling uncomfortable having said it, because I still prefer to have an argument support things. But at least perhaps it stirred things up.]

I guess the thing to do, is just make a bold statement and then come back later and fill in a brilliant argument? :smile:
 

Totenkindly

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I guess the thing to do, is just make a bold statement and then come back later and fill in a brilliant argument? :smile:

[Tangent: I was analyzing this later, and I realized that I like to make non-committal impromptu arguments, or throw out ideas/pushbacks and then react to them in whatever way they are responded to. It is rather like firing off a challenge, just to see how someone might react to it; and I don't really know my next step until I get the response.]

But yes. Of course. Officially, I have an argument up my sleeve and will provide it if I need to. (*cough*)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Put another way, I don't need to create a complicated argument about why a duck is a duck. I can just look at the duck and say, "Hey, it looks like a duck."
But he doesn't necessarily look like a duck to me, so the best way you can convince of this type of argument rests on your credibility alone, which does hold merit. It wouldn't help me to know how to apply this kind of question in a new context.

So it's like
Jenn: "look, there's a duck"
Me "Where? I don't see a duck"
Jenn "Yeah, it's right over there. Didn't you see it move?
Me: "Maybe. But I thought that was a beaver". :nerd:

:smooch:
 

GZA

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I heard somewhere Carl Jung was INTP...
 

The Ü™

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I read that Jung was INTP and Freud was INFJ.
 

Mycroft

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Given that Freud considered introversion a mental illness, I'd say he was an extravert.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I read that Jung was INTP and Freud was INFJ.
I've heard that also, but have reservations.

Given that Freud considered introversion a mental illness, I'd say he was an extravert.
LOL

One thing i'm certain of concerning Freud is that his emotional world was Fi not Fe. He projected his own emotional framework onto his theory big time and used the complete absense of external emotional cues as a technique. He seems much more strongly T than F as well.

It is funny on these sites dominated by introverts that there is a continual assumption that leaders and performers are introverts. That can indeed happen, but it's a rare combo and usually their life reveals their true introversion with some clarity. I agree there isn't much in Freud's life to suggest introversion over extroversion. Remember the significant majority of people are extroverts. Introverts that go down in history often deal with ideas in more isolation that don't involve other people. There are a number of writers who are introverts. People who can play the crowd or work extensively with people are going to tend to be extroverts far more often than not.
 

ygolo

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Given that Freud considered introversion a mental illness, I'd say he was an extravert.

Introverts can be quite self-hating. Introverted criticism of introversion is likely to be more harsh and poignant.

I kind of see him as very similar to Lenore Thompson and Katherine Briggs who I believe were both INFJs.

This website claims Freud as an INFJ.

Famous likely INFJs include: Thomas Jefferson (whose creativity, genius, and idealism helped to forge the Republic, even though his own aristocratic value system was different from that of the Constituition he helped to author); Jimmy Carter (whose Introversion kept him from being understood, and whose iNtuitive-Feeling preference enabled him to be a powerful mediator in bringing Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat to an accord); and Sigmund Freud (whose iNtuitive psychological theories revolutionized the world, and whose strong Feeling preference kept him working to help people his entire life, although others' criticism of his work made him ever more rigidly entrenched in his own beliefs).

I think Frued is a good candidate for Ni. A lot of anecdotes I've read about him makes him seem introverted.

IOne thing i'm certain of concerning Freud is that his emotional world was Fi not Fe. He projected his own emotional framework onto his theory big time and used the complete absense of external emotional cues as a technique.


I actually think he was projecting what he perceived to be societal frameworks into his theory (a lot of people believed that people were inherently savages and needed to be "cultured" to not end up in that state), not his own desires.
 

Tayshaun

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"We know that Jung once told a colleague that his Dominant function was Introverted Thinking. That means he was either an ISTP or an INTP. Jung was certainly abstract rather than concrete, so it seems safe to hold him up as an example of an INTP." Vol. 2 No. 3 (Winter 1985) of The Type Reporter (page 10)
 

wildcat

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Page xvi of The Portable Jung, tells in Jung's own words how deeply painful the discovery about the affair between Freud and Freud's SIL was. This was in 1907 and then in 1909, Freud called Jung's ideas about parapsychology "Sheer Nonsense!" and things began to get only worse after that.

Jung says that it was the love triangle that was a very important part in his break with him and also that he felt Freud placed authority above truth in regards to exploring parapsychology.
The term is not the thing.

What is today described as parapsychology has nothing to do with Jung.

Unless you get caught up with semantics.

The appellation is a misdemeanour.
 

Llewellyn

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I read somewhere Jung didn't agree too much on him being typed as an INTP, he is mentioned as an INTJ.
Jung sometimes seems to (as if for supposed societal requiredness, to mimick society's confusal of terms) 'mess up' terms.
With saying of himself introverted thinking was his dominant function he might as well have meant introverted intuition.

Freud is held to have been an extravert, as is Goethe (in Jung's books both pointed out as opposites of introverts), and both are often typed as introverts (e.g. INFJ), while I think Goethe might have been ENFJ (He's more expressive of his need to be alone, making it conditional for having to have a certain goal to work towards). Could Freud have been ENTJ (seen from the reactions here, so both having T, Fi and Ni)?
 

Sentura

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jung was without doubt INFJ. if he was T, he would not have the ability to understand people as well as he did.
 
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