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  1. #21
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, I thought Freud was an S. He's quite the empiricist, who then adds a great deal of pseudo-N talk to the data. (He started out as a hardcore data collect for... what was it... hysterectomy patients?)

    Many of his ideas seem to be comprised of bits and pieces of data taken from his research but then connected in illogical or inconclusive ways and treated conclusively. N's tend to start with a framework and piece data into it.

    I'd at least give him a TJ rating.

    I dont think that being an empiricist has anything to do with being a Sensors. John Locke was a radical empiricist, he thought that we are born with an empty mind to begin with, yet his philosophy was very abstract. As a man he was also highly Intuitive. Locke was an INTJ.

    So was Freud. Freud's imagination worked in a way to discover realms of the mind that seem otherworldly. The unconscious. The empiricist and authority oriented aspects of his thought are better connected with his Te mindset. Though clearly, he was quite the visionary, as his Intuition was preponderous over his Extroverted Thinking. He was a natural brainstormer and his mind would never want to dismiss anything, regardless of how ludicrous it may seem on the surface. Yet much like a typical INJ, whilst he very much takes many of those seemingly bizarre ideas seriously, externally he has to make a judgment, and hence this makes him seem like he is dismissing ideas that he is actually dwelling on for the sake of working his imagination. Thats the difference between an INTJ and an INTP. Both enjoy exploring complex ideas, INTJs tend to do this for the sake of imagination, whilst INTPs have clear-cut problems to solve and are more focused in this regard.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I might sound foolish, and have not done enough research to command details as you have, nor do I have time right now... but this is a case to me where experience trumps theory.

    Freud does not match up with what my intuition is telling me an intuitive "looks like."

    So I'm logging a protest against N, hopefully to be revisited later when I have the time and motivation to explore him further.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    No that's a good point. There was a precedent set. I don't think that significantly changes what i was saying. My hypothesis of Freud's contributions in working with the subconscious implying iNtuition isn't significantly different if his contribution was less unprecendented.



    I realized that while in the shower. My familiarity is greater with MBTI than Jung. What stands out to me from what i know is that Ti is a process of selecting the most accurate axioms and then forming the most ideal thought based on rigorous logic and the dismissal of everything that doesn't stand the test of scruntiny.

    What i've read of Jung so far is that he tends to embrace a wide range of things, is drawn towards the most subjective of systems, seeks to embrace and then form connections. That is my thought process which i have understood is N based. I wonder if Jung is Ti dominant, what would Ni dominant look like if not like Jung? I'm certainly not going to suggest he's different than he claims, but it does lessen the role of logic and dismissal as an important aspect of Ti. I think the idea of INTP must have evolved since his time?


    Ha. Well that settles it. Isn't there a great big red tag on that folder that reads INFJ? Btw i think Ghandi, Marilyn Manson, Robert Deniro, and Bambi are also in that folder.
    The idea of an INTP couldnt have evolved. Maybe the symbol of an INTP has evolved, but ideas in themselves are not corruptible. Perhaps INTP was the notation Jung used to express what we call Ni-Te, but that is highly unlikely based on the writings he left in Psychological Types. He referred to each of those functions by labels that we apply now, and described them in a way we today describe our functions.

    Jung first established the most sound premises for his inquiry, and then he would go on to brainstorm. Jung rarely approached subjective notions for their own end as the INJs would, but only as means to the end of solidifying his axioms. Moreover, the way the MBTI system was designed seems like manifest work of Ti-Ne. First he starts with the 16 core entities, out of which springs the rest of the edifice. Ni would first collect all the information and take Intuitive leaps to find the most congenial, and only later arrive at a solid station to stand by. In this respect the Ni-Te is much less orderly than Ti and Ne, and if there is one merit that Jung as a thinker had, it would be precision of thought. Freud'd exposition seemed to be a lot more loose, and in sharp contrast to Jung he seemed to exploring ideas just for the sake of imagination alone, whilst Jung almost always had a clear-cut problem to solve. Moreover, Jung could explain the most intricate of ideas he was pondering to others, whilst Freud was unable to because he was too deeply steeped in his imagination. In other words, Jung kept his exploration of esoteric ideas in check by consistently applying logical analysis, whilst Freud lapsed into subjectivism. An INTP would abhor such a mindset as bringing logical order is more important to the INTP than exploration of ideas.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #24
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I might sound foolish, and have not done enough research to command details as you have, nor do I have time right now... but this is a case to me where experience trumps theory.

    Freud does not match up with what my intuition is telling me an intuitive "looks like."

    So I'm logging a protest against N, hopefully to be revisited later when I have the time and motivation to explore him further.

    You dont make decisions on such matters based on Intuitions, only through critical analysis. (Ti). T is the decision making function (judging), not N..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You dont make decisions on such matters based on Intuitions, only through critical analysis. (Ti). T is the decision making function (judging), not N..
    <eyeroll>

    Fine.

    Then my Ti is telling me that there's a better chance my internal rolodex is more accurate than your purely linear and theoretical argument based on impersonal principles... especially because I'm dealing with the psychological "image" of the actual people directly, not with a once-removed descriptive paragraph of their general behaviors.

    Put another way, I don't need to create a complicated argument about why a duck is a duck. I can just look at the duck and say, "Hey, it looks like a duck."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    <Put another way, I don't need to create a complicated argument about why a duck is a duck. I can just look at the duck and say, "Hey, it looks like a duck."
    That sounds so INFP.

    I tend to think Freud was INTJ because of his...ahem....sexual problems.


    ETA. I am just kidding, using the INTP accusation that INTJ spend more time thinking about sex than having sex.

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    That sounds so INFP.
    And it can also be very common-sense SJ! (That's the beauty of it.)

    [Actually, now I'm feeling uncomfortable having said it, because I still prefer to have an argument support things. But at least perhaps it stirred things up.]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And it can also be very common-sense SJ! (That's the beauty of it.)

    [Actually, now I'm feeling uncomfortable having said it, because I still prefer to have an argument support things. But at least perhaps it stirred things up.]
    I guess the thing to do, is just make a bold statement and then come back later and fill in a brilliant argument?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I guess the thing to do, is just make a bold statement and then come back later and fill in a brilliant argument?
    [Tangent: I was analyzing this later, and I realized that I like to make non-committal impromptu arguments, or throw out ideas/pushbacks and then react to them in whatever way they are responded to. It is rather like firing off a challenge, just to see how someone might react to it; and I don't really know my next step until I get the response.]

    But yes. Of course. Officially, I have an argument up my sleeve and will provide it if I need to. (*cough*)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Put another way, I don't need to create a complicated argument about why a duck is a duck. I can just look at the duck and say, "Hey, it looks like a duck."
    But he doesn't necessarily look like a duck to me, so the best way you can convince of this type of argument rests on your credibility alone, which does hold merit. It wouldn't help me to know how to apply this kind of question in a new context.

    So it's like
    Jenn: "look, there's a duck"
    Me "Where? I don't see a duck"
    Jenn "Yeah, it's right over there. Didn't you see it move?
    Me: "Maybe. But I thought that was a beaver".

    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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