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  1. #51
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    eNTJ trying to create an INxP-esque image. He's always felt very contrived to me.

    I notice Ni-dom and Ni-aux artists like to create elaborate images for themselves (often appearing very SP visually - think Madonna, Lady Gaga, Siouxsie Sioux - all ENTJs, IMO, but appear SP on the surface.).

    Ne-dom and Ne-aux like to portray "who they are" (especially when paired with Fi), even if it's in some exaggerated manner for stage.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The interviews of him i've seen strike me as an STP. I realize the assumptions on this forum are that STs cannot be creative and such, but that is not consistent with the MBTI literature. There is a bizarre manner in which STPs get confused with INFJs when they lead. I think this is because they share all the same functions, but in a different order. INFJs are intensely private. He is a showman, and an incredible business man. He adores shock value - something that INFJs avoid like the plague. He could be the same type as Madonna. These image intense people are strategists in a way that is not compatible with INFJness. INFJs are not image conscious in this way. Few people in pop culture are INFJs - maybe a few method actors and modest, counterculture musicians.

    INFJs are very private, nuanced, complex, inward, hidden. Their expression is not overt, shocking, showman style. The reason I am quicker to call DeNiro an INFJ is because he has the capacity to disappear, observe a sea of details and nuance about people, then recreate using intense empathy. I can't swear to either being INFJ, but I'd place a decent sized bet on DeNiro over MM.


    I worked for a male INFJ employer. Not even close.

    As an INFJ artist myself i can tell you that shock value and drama is not the dialogue of Ni-Fe, etc. INFJ art is intense understatement and nuance.
    Robert De Niro is an INFP, but your point is correct, some fantastic character actors (such as YouTube - Premonition of Sir Alec Guiness ) are/were INFJs.

    Getting back to MM, the two most obvious questions you have to ask are

    1) What is this person's extroverted function?

    2) Does this person extrovert or introvert feeling?

    Obviously, in some cases, if you answer the first you answer the second...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    eNTJ trying to create an INxP-esque image. He's always felt very contrived to me.

    I notice Ni-dom and Ni-aux artists like to create elaborate images for themselves (often appearing very SP visually - think Madonna, Lady Gaga, Siouxsie Sioux - all ENTJs, IMO, but appear SP on the surface.).
    Were ESTP Madonna or ISFP Lady Gaga ENTJs, Te would be the predominant function expressed verbally in interviews, as it is for all TJs.

  4. #54
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    too many people hang onto this idea that he is INTP because he is iconoclastic and WEIRD... that's just a weak reasoning imo.

    Fact: Manson has gone on record saying that the 2 biggest sources for his music are Nietzsche, and the King James bible. While many INTPs love Nietzsche, I don't know many INTPs that would use the bible as an inspirational source for over 15 years of creative work. I assert that Manson is actually a Christian existentialist ala Kierkegaard and is INF, most likely INFJ.

  5. #55
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Were ESTP Madonna or ISFP Lady Gaga ENTJs, Te would be the predominant function expressed verbally in interviews, as it is for all TJs.
    ESTP and ISFP are their created personae, exactly. I think Madonna seems Te-ish a LOT in interviews.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ESTP and ISFP are their created personae, exactly. I think Madonna seems Te-ish a LOT in interviews.
    Madonna's an ESTP, so it is possible to confuse the two, but of course ETJs are far more directive and definitive than ESTPs. An ESTP perceives Se realities in an objective or dispassionate fashion, an ETJ issues objective organizing judgments based on their perceptive function. There is overlap most clearly on answers requiring concision.

    The fact that Madonna extroverts feeling is another tip off to her not being an ETJ...

    Of course, it is possible that some people create a persona which is only "taken off" in the privacy of their own home--but that's highly unlikely, and with Madonna and most public figures, you've got hundreds of pages of interview material to work with...

  7. #57

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    Marilyn Manson is definitely not an extrovert! Just look at the way he talks in any interview. He's quiet, soft-spoken, slightly uncomfortable with having to communicate with another human being face-to-face. He is in his element on-stage and when writing. He creates a larger-than-life persona to do his work for him.

    He is very INTP to me.

  8. #58
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I don't understand how people see Ti and not Ni.



  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Fact: Manson has gone on record saying that the 2 biggest sources for his music are Nietzsche, and the King James bible. While many INTPs love Nietzsche, I don't know many INTPs that would use the bible as an inspirational source for over 15 years of creative work. I assert that Manson is actually a Christian existentialist ala Kierkegaard and is INF, most likely INFJ.
    Manson uses the Bible the way graffiti artists use public property. I would generally think that defacing something means that you don't respect what it stands for.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    eNTJ trying to create an INxP-esque image. He's always felt very contrived to me.

    I notice Ni-dom and Ni-aux artists like to create elaborate images for themselves (often appearing very SP visually - think Madonna, Lady Gaga, Siouxsie Sioux - all ENTJs, IMO, but appear SP on the surface.).

    Ne-dom and Ne-aux like to portray "who they are" (especially when paired with Fi), even if it's in some exaggerated manner for stage.
    I can imagine that Madonna would be an ExTJ and I don't know anything about Sioxsie Sioux, but Lady Gaga is certainly not an ENTJ. If you asked me, I'd say she's an INTP too, in almost the same manner as Manson. She is introverted and creates a larger-than-life persona to 'hide' behind. Lady Gaga is not so much an artist as she is an idea; I wouldn't say the same for Madonna. They are two VERY different personalities, the only similarity being that they're both larger-than-life: but in very different ways, and for very different reasons.

    I am very certain that Lady Gaga wouldn't want to be Madonna, given the chance. She considers Yoko Ono to be an influence.

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