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  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Fwiw: consider this regarding the Ni mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I think perhaps you're over-focusing on the shock value and under-focusing on his behavior in interviews and on his general message. He has (had) more to say than, say, Ozzy or Madonna ever had. Did you read the written statement I link to in the OP?

    A major theme in his lyrics is authenticity, btw. The word "fake" occurs about as frequently as the other F word.
    That could mean a variety of things. 1. he is authentic and resists the idea of fakeness. 2. he is in fact a fake himself and so must make the declaration - protesting too much. 3. he has analyzed that such an approach will sell based on psychological and social dynamics.

    I don't focus solely on the interviews because i know all too well how much can be faked in this manner. I can't tell you how many people i've met that acted mousy, but then slapped their kids around hard screaming and yelling, or people who act really confident who have no self-esteem. Very often the facade is the person's exact opposite. Yes, mannerisms and statements in interviews have relevance, but it is only one small piece in the larger puzzle. What I look at more is what their life would require of them and how they interact with those demands. Fwiw, my entire life is surrounded by artists of every personality type and expression. It'd be harder for me to pinpoint various types as they present in medicine or something, but artists are my point of reference.

    Frankly, i think an artist that uses the word "fake" too much is more likely a fake than anything.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #12
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    That could mean a variety of things. 1. he is authentic and resists the idea of fakeness. 2. he is in fact a fake himself and so must make the declaration - protesting too much. 3. he has analyzed that such an approach will sell based on psychological and social dynamics.
    Or 4. he values and strives for authenticity but all too often in the past has compromised his ideals in the name of people-pleasing and avoiding conflict. This is the one I subscribe to.

    I don't focus solely on the interviews because i know all too well how much can be faked in this manner.
    IIUC, then you have watched interviews with him and you see where we are coming from with the INFJ-not-ISTP reading but you believe him to be faking it?

  3. #13
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    IIUC, then you have watched interviews with him and you see where we are coming from with the INFJ-not-ISTP reading but you believe him to be faking it?
    I've watched interviews of him. They don't strike me as particularly INFJ or not. He strikes me as an expert at image creation and therefore his presentation of self, regardless of its flavor, is to be taken as one element and not the final conclusion. His presentation of self is based on his intention as is true of anyone to some degree.

    Just a question: has anyone here been required to perform and create and maintain an image? It looks different from the inside i assure you. The performing arts are a cut-throat business filled with manipulation and artifice. Very little is actually as it is presented. Presentation is nearly always based on maximum benefit. That is the foundational dialog and status quo. Those who succeed in the environment know this and become expert. STs have an incredible advantage. Softer types do well if assisted by a hard-core image strategist.

    MM has a great strategy. 1. Shock value and deliberate controversy to establish sound-bite attention. 2. A dialog that connects with present day cynicism and psychological needs. 3. The ability to create dual images - one for shock value and sensation to obtain attention, the second to connect with the 'average joe'. The performing arts are all about presenting yourself as larger than life and at the same time make each person think you are singing to them personally. That is prepackaged strategy. It is done all the time. It also makes me kinda sick.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #14
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    Ni is good at creating an image -- Ni envisions things in the mind. Consequently, Ni could involve envisioning a personal image.

    I think what all of us need to do is gear ourselves away from the Keirsey stereotypes. Creating a self-image of the self is indeed an N thing. The S doesn't create an idealized self-image, they are the real image.

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Ni is good at creating an image -- Ni envisions things in the mind. Consequently, Ni could involve envisioning a personal image.
    So then INTJs and INFJs are the best at creating image? Both being Ni dominant? This seems rather unlikely. Those are two types that struggle the most to even get a date. Image conscious people are those who succeed socially. I'd venture to say that IN Js are among the least proficient at this.

    I find that Ni is not connected enough to the concrete world to revel in image. Si is more akin to this.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    So then INTJs and INFJs are the best at creating image? Both being Ni dominant? This seems rather unlikely.

    I find that Ni is not connected enough to the concrete world to revel in image. Si is more akin to this.
    I'm not saying all INxJs are good at creating an image, but that is logically more in the domain of N than S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berens and Nardi's cognitive processes
    Introverted iNtuiting: Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols. Envisioning yourself in an outfit or maybe envisioning yourself being a certain way.

    Introverted Sensing: Reviewing past experiences; “what is” evoking “what was”; seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been. Remembering the last time you wore a particular item or the last time you were at a similar event—maybe even remembering how you felt then.
    Creating an image of the self does seem much more Ni than Si.

  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Creating an image of the self does seem much more Ni than Si.
    Also consider the whole "keeping up with the Jones'" concept of presenting oneself with the most beautiful house, expensive car, credentials, who you know name dropping, displaying wealth, becoming valued successful archetypes, etc. That too is about image.

    The question is what type of image do other respond to.

    I guess my position is this: What appears to be new and innovative in the arts to others, often looks very formulaic to me. It looks more Si than Ni to me.

    Now Kurt Cobain looks like an N to me. Not because of anything he said, but the way his value system exhibited itself in his actions, the way he responded to "the machine". He was incompatible with it. Most pop artists are completely compatible - that is why they succeed. It is prepackaged strategy. Not foresight.

    Edit: Also, it's worth noting that STPs are actually 'gifted' at image creation. This is why the ESTP gets the archetype of the conman. ISTPs aren't shabby either. They can exhibit incredibly soft traits while being quite the opposite. Image creation is more about persistence, shock value, than it is about nuance. People's desires and needs are pretty basic - especially when dealing with the public at large. The successful image-creator assesses those rather painfully obvious needs and then hammers their point home. Works every time.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #18
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    Okay, now I see where you're getting at.

    But humans are gregarious creatures. They want to impress others. The difference is that the S impresses in a prescribed way -- like showing off hip and trendy clothes. But the N impresses in unusual ways, or what they perceive as unusual ways.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    There's really very little speaking for him as an SP. In fact, N and J are Marilyn Mansons strongest MBTI-traits. Consider Trent Reznor, Manson's off-on friend and mentor from adolessence: They basically hold the same views on religion and morality, yet Reznor (a probable SP) is somewhat discreet, personal and indirect about them whereas Manson wants/wanted to inflate his points and shove them down the throat of everyone in America. To him the problems of religion and morality seem all-permeading (N) whereas Reznor treats them as lyrical means to a musical end (S).

    I'm with you all on the NFJ.
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  10. #20
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    There's really very little speaking for him as an SP. In fact, N and J are Marilyn Mansons strongest MBTI-traits. Consider Trent Reznor, Manson's off-on friend and mentor from adolessence: They basically hold the same views on religion and morality, yet Reznor (a probable SP) is somewhat discreet, personal and indirect about them whereas Manson wants/wanted to inflate his points and shove them down the throat of everyone in America. To him the problems of religion and morality seem all-permeading (N) whereas Reznor treats them as lyrical means to a musical end (S).

    I'm with you all on the NFJ.
    I found some more interview clips. He said he despises sports which does lean towards N. It implies a lack of sensory presence.

    Why has he generally been assumed an introvert? Most of these celebrity threads are assuming introversion. Why is that? He seems significantly extroverted to me even in the interviews. Not high energy bubbly, but very 'smooth', playing every card with O'Reilly. He is so comfortable being 'seen'. He said he was shy, but that is not a determining factor for introversion. The social energy required to perform in the spectacle driven manner he does seems extroverted as does the desire to reach out and shock. Everyone is 'shy' to some extent - it's a matter of context. Remember the majority of people are extroverts and celebrity by nature nurtures extroversion. Truly introverted celebrities are going to be a significant minority.

    I lean towards ESTP or ENFJ. He seems to portray both - there is a kind of dichotomy/inconsistency in his presentation. One minute he says 'it's just entertainment', then the next it has deep moral implications and questioning. I see this inconsistency as either using the 'just entertainment' angle to get people off his back, or else using the 'moral questioning' as a way to promote two angles and thus get an increased fanbase.

    Edit: interesting anecdote...
    For one year i had access to a mentor who had performed at the pinnacle of the field of opera. He was an ENFJ, but not particularly strong NF - he actually took the test and emailed me his results so this is not conjectured. He was very deliberate in creating image, telling me that he studied the mannerisms of successful people and practiced these in the mirror. He suggested i do the same. Pageantry and drama were his home. He was also a strategist for earning money. His charisma was out the wazoo - he just dripped with it and it wasn't the bubbly sunshiny type. His manner was at times reticent and vulnerable, occassionally tripping or stumbling on words. He was a hardcore extrovert despite this. When shifting to topics of politics and morality he became very intense, even angry to a slightly frightening degree. He enjoyed shocking people and throwing them off a bit. He was masterful at getting people attached to him. I can see some significant parallels. An ENFJ with a fairly present STP is possibly the most potent charismatic figure. That's what i would bet on MM.

    INFJs are the master of understatement. While they can make a strong impact on people, it tends to be on an individual basis, rather than the extroverted impact on the masses. I'm thinking that ENFJs have more mastery with overstatement. Just a thought.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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