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Thread: WATCHMEN

  1. #51
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrME View Post
    All right, a quick "re-glance" ( ) through the type descriptions...

    Rorschach: ISTJ
    Dr. Manhattan: INTP
    Ozy: ENTJ
    Nite Owl II: ISFJ
    Silk Spectre II: (really tough call) ISFP
    The Comedian: ESTP
    ok that's better.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #52
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No it's not. A person could be and do all those things and be ST, and it's not even a stretch of the imagination.



    I don't understand what the bold parts have to do with being N or S.
    I didn't intentionally bold it, not sure why it is. Whoops.

    Also, while S's are quite physical, Rationals can also be. He is entirely DEductive in his reasoning, which comes from an N. I agree on the T part, I just think Rorschach, not Kovacs, is more of an N than an S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Are you kidding me?

    The whole point of his character is that he never compromised.

    He even said that he would never back down and then willing went to his death because he refused to compromise.

    Oh, ha, I didn't mean stubborn as "uncompromising", I meant it as "without thought" (Not stubborn= not without thought). Also, while his character is non-compromising, N's as well as S's are like that. Really I think the stubborness comes from the T side of him, rather than an debatable S or N.

    NT's, when stuck on a hunch, (I know from personal and other experience) will follow it through to the end, working in a logically deductive manner. It wasn't that he would never change his opinions on the mask killer, it was that he would never compromise to anyone or anything for his morals. He believed in Truth and Information, which, in my opinion, is more of an N than an S.
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  3. #53
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    I liked how he was short. Made him all the more threatening.

    Also, maybe he's just an IxTJ then. I do agree on the S side, now with more thought into it, but I'm still not entirely convinced.

    There's just some essence of the analytical overtones that I see in the character...though he is a very black and white person. (no pun intended)

    Also, I think Manhattan's indifference doesen't nessecarily come from a P, but rather from his comparison to the human race. Both as a plot device (which I actuallyliked about the end of the movie, come to think of it) and as a plausible character, he is bound to be detateched- he is, in essence, a god. However, whenever he did make a decision, it was quick and well, decisive.
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  4. #54
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    I changed my mind about Dr Manhattan being an INTJ. Instead I think he's INTP. Here are some of my reasons why. (WARNING: Advanced psychobabble about to commence):

    Alan Moore, the writer of Watchmen is certainly familiar with the work of C. G. Jung - he even includes a quote from "Memories, Dreams and Reflections" at the end of one chapter. In my opinion, he carefully crafted the major characters of Watchmen to represent Jungian Archetypes, or possibly psychological types, whilst at the same time managing to keep them human enough to identify with - even Dr Manhattan (I'll just call him Jon from now on to save time), which is quite an achievement!

    I missed this before, but the most important clue to Jon's character is his skin colour. Remember that he reconstructed his body from the sub-atomic level upwards; therefore he consciously chose to be blue - he could just as easily have chosen a normal human skin tone.

    The blue he chose is cool sky-blue. Im looking at the bright New Zealand sky right now, and it is a very similar colour to Jons skin. In Jungian terms, blue is the colour of the Thinking functions, associated with the sky and the element of Air. This is my further extension: dark blue/purple is the colour of Te, whilst light blue symbolises Ti.

    The Thinking function includes the ability to examine a situation from a great distance, as if viewing it from the sky itself. This is highly conducive to logical analysis, as the remoteness of the viewpoint considerably reduces the emotional connection to the objects under examination. Most religious pantheons have a Sky-God of some type, with this form of detached, yet all-seeing viewpoint. In many religions (Christianity included) the Sky-God has become the dominant (or only) true God.

    In Watchmen, Ozymandius represents Extraverted Thinking (one of his costume colours is royal purple), supported by Intuition (the gold parts of his uniform). Yellow-Gold often symbolises Intuition as the element of Fire because it is the colour of the Sun, source of all life and inspiration. Ozymandius is a King-like figure, Te-dom types are often portrayed as Kings, Rulers or Emperors in mythology.

    In contrast, Jon is a living embodiment of both the highest form of Introverted Thinking (able to make connections at the quantum level of reality) and of God himself. If he still has a Jungian Type, then it must be INTP, as he is an extremely abstract thinker. His ability to perceive time non-linearly is a result of his super-enhanced Ne function, not Ni (the two functions do cover some of the same terrain, as do the I and E versions of the other functions). His perceptions are truly global in scope, encompassing time and space in all directions.

    This makes more sense in the context of the story, as INTPs Inferior function is Extraverted Feeling. Jon is pretty clueless in the Fe world. For most of his life, he has relied on other people to carry this function for him; firstly his father, then his girlfriend Janey and finally Laurie, the second Silk Spectre. He is a lot more emotional than other people realise, he just conceals it well, even from himself.

    This is the nature of the Inferior for most people, especially prior to mid-life: we completely project its qualities, both positive and negative, onto other people. Its associated Archetype is the Anima (for males) or Animus (for females). For this reason we usually seek for its embodiment in our romantic partners (regardless of whether or not they are skilled with that function themselves).

    This fits nicely into the Watchmen mythology, as The Silk Spectre character (both mother and daughter) is the major Anima figure in the story. The Anima has enormous power over males, she may be worshipped or desired, but is impossible to ignore. Other females may be jealous of her (eg. Janey vs Laurie) as she represents ideal Womanhood.

    In Jons case, Laurie, as his Anima-figure, provides his primary link to ordinary humanity for twenty years. When Laurie leaves him for good, the link is broken and Jon relocates to Mars (for an even more distant Ti viewpoint). However, his Inferior function is not yet ready to let go of Jon's humanity completely, nor is it finished with the Silk Spectre.

    Now that they are no longer romantically involved, Jon can progress to the next stage of Anima development. The Anima in males can be a source of profound internal wisdom, once we cease projecting it outwards. Rather than relying on Laurie to carry his Feeling function, he instead relates to her as an intelligent, caring human woman, for maybe the first time in his life. Their conversation on Mars leads to major revelations for both characters. Laurie convinces Jon of the importance and value of human life, whilst Jon (who represents Lauries own Animus - she is a dominant Feeling type - probably ISFP) imparts enough of his own clarity of Thinking to Laurie for her to finally acknowledge what she has always known at some level: the true identity of her biological father. Because of Jon's godlike powers, this conversation is also of Cosmic importance - the fate of the whole human race depended upon its outcome.

    After the encounter, both characters have evolved significantly. Jon regains his interest in humanity, he can now begin to access his own Fe function without relying on others. Laurie is freed from the burden of her past, and takes a more active and assertive standpoint because she can now start to draw upon her own Te function.

    This is how Anima/Animus dynamics tend to play out in real life; for each participant to evolve, they must withdraw their projection from the other person and reclaim it for themselves. The so-called mid-life crisis occurs in most people when the Inferior function is no longer satisfied with its backseat role in our lives and demands to be given a more prominent position.

    I am just coming out of the far side of this process myself (I am 47) and it has been an interesting(!) journey, to say the least! As a result of my own experiences, I now have a far healthier relationship with my own Se-Anima than in the past, though there are still a few kinks in our relationship to work out. BTW, one way my Anima presents herself to me is as the comic-book heroine Scarlet Witch, hence my current Avatar.

    OK, psychobabble over for now!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  5. #55
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Alan Moore, the writer of Watchmen is certainly familiar with the work of C. G. Jung - he even includes a quote from "Memories, Dreams and Reflections" at the end of one chapter. In my opinion, he carefully crafted the major characters of Watchmen to represent Jungian Archetypes, or possibly psychological types, whilst at the same time managing to keep them human enough to identify with - even Dr Manhattan (I'll just call him Jon from now on to save time), which is quite an achievement!

    I missed this before, but the most important clue to Jon's character is his skin colour. Remember that he reconstructed his body from the sub-atomic level upwards; therefore he consciously chose to be blue - he could just as easily have chosen a normal human skin tone.
    That is actually something I have been mulling over for quite some time. This is quite an interesting view, and actually makes a lot of sense. However, instead of strictly Jungian archetypes, I think Moore also went for a sort of "this person symbolizes x in human traits as well as y viewpoint in society as a whole, and their role in a loterary plot line is z." (which can be related back to the archetypes in an all-encompassing umbrella. I just think there are other aspects tied into it, such as Jon being an example of either the omnipotent "narrator" in some stories, realized within the setting itself and playing a largely active role in the entire thing, or just the manifestation of a "god" figure in society- withdrawing the need for an organized religion in the eyes of the main characters, thus quelling any argument of such, allowing the focus to be maintained on the human condition within themselvs and society rather than outside our own forces)

    Also, aside from symbolizing traits as stated in the post above, Manhattan is, in essence, Ozy's counterpoint, as well as a possible literary foil for Rorschach and/or Ozy. Adrian the "smartest man alive" (ironic, considering Jon existed at the time as well) is in control of the human race (including Jon, effectively the "better" in terms of capacity and overall ability), and yet is bested by Rorschach; almost a hobo living in New York who is unknown to basically the entire world. We see here a cycle of sorts- Adrian succeeding (yes, the "I did it 35 minutes ago" internet joke applies here) at his ultimate goal- ultimately "good" through "bad"- which happened to be an ultimate atrocity to Rorschach, who also happened to do "good" through "bad", and who, in the long run, may or may not have bested Adrian and revealed him to society. (oh right, spoilers) Now Jon, originally beaten by Adrian, won over Rorschach (My favorite scene in the movie, I might add), completing the triangle. Once Rorschach is defeated, Jon as well as Adrian also disapear from society- one went off on his own thing elsewhere in the Universe, the other presumably stayes in Antarctica.

    Alltogether serving as commentary on both man's power over himself and society (Adrian's physical perfection and scheme as a whole) and the limited effects a "god" has on society with its presence alone, (cue Dr.Manhattan), the two most powerful characters serve as an ironic counterbalance to Society- both the intended object of the audience's "I'm rooting for you" sense and the "I can't believe you were so stupid, you deserve this" point of view from Rorschach(another subject entirely)- and in turn their own conflicting powers.

    So while Manhattan can serve as the Blue guy Jungian Archetype for this amazing theory worked out in the post above me, he (as well as any other influential character in the mammoth novel) can be an example of a literary force as well as a commentary and symbol of power in society.
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  6. #56
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Good stuff, plaguerat!

    Our respective analyses are entirely compatible with each other, this is in itself a testament to the skill of Alan Moore as a writer: to be able to imbue (normally) 2D comic-book characters with so many rich qualities and layers of meaning. I suspect I'll re-read Watchmen a few years from now and find still more unsuspected depth (there's an Ni prophecy for you!).

    It is relatively easy for a writer with some basic psych knowledge to use Archetypes as characters, but crude attempts to do so are just too obvious for me. Moore's Watchmen do indeed have Archetypal qualities, but they are much more than just that. Some of their personality quirks and other little details are in complete contradiction with the stereotypes they seemingly represent on the surface.

    For example, The Comedian's emotional breakdown upon learning of the larger plot to save the world seems out of character for the cynical, tough guy he usually presents himself to be. In that scene, he reveals an emotionally insecure, vulnerable side to his nature, which makes him a little more understandable and sympathetic to the reader, without going so far as to justify his atrocities. It's never revealed how he came to be so violent and cynical, but it sure wasn't through a happy childhood!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  7. #57
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Good stuff, plaguerat!

    ...

    For example, The Comedian's emotional breakdown upon learning of the larger plot to save the world seems out of character for the cynical, tough guy he usually presents himself to be. In that scene, he reveals an emotionally insecure, vulnerable side to his nature, which makes him a little more understandable and sympathetic to the reader, without going so far as to justify his atrocities. It's never revealed how he came to be so violent and cynical, but it sure wasn't through a happy childhood!
    1. Thank you.

    2. Maybe his cynicism has something (I'd bet alot) to do with him being the "commedian" in the first place. Ignoring whatever type he may be, he has obviously experienced the horrors of the world, and contributed to them as well. Aside from blatant irony in his name and demeanor, maybe irony was the essence of his existance. (Again, Ardian/Rorschach idea, the whole "bad that is actually good" theme) His time had come both literally and character-wise when his balance was thrown out of whack and his character changed completely.

    Oh Alan Moore, you are such nice writer...
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  8. #58
    ♪♫♪♫♪♫ luminous beam's Avatar
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    typology types from left to right, starting with the blue man: INTJ, ESTP, INFP, ISTP, ENFP, INFJ


  9. #59
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luminous beam View Post


    typology types from left to right, starting with the blue man: INTJ, ESTP, INFP, ISTP, ENFP, INFJ
    Silk Spekter is a xSFx

    Ozy is xNTJ(Id lean towards E)

    John is so Ti that it HURTS(INTP)

    I always figured comedian as an N
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrME View Post
    All right, a quick "re-glance" ( ) through the type descriptions...

    Rorschach: ISTJ
    Dr. Manhattan: INTP
    Ozy: ENTJ
    Nite Owl II: ISFJ
    Silk Spectre II: (really tough call) ISFP
    The Comedian: ESTP
    i agree totally with this

    also, i would just like to say (since this is THE watchmen thread) that nite owl is one of the worst designed "heroes" i have ever seen (and he seems totally unoriginal when compared to batman etc.)

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