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Thread: Bjork's type

  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've been reflecting on your thoughts here, and this is what I've come up with fwiw.

    You are right that the iNtuition she uses is Ni. It is also interesting to see that her use of reconciling dichotomies has become more effective as she has matured. Her early attempts are somewhat arbitrary and clique. This suggests to me that it is not her primary function, but is in there some place. I guess what causes me to doubt the INFJ profile for her is that her Sensing seems much stronger than her Thinking. Her Thinking function is nearly absent in her work. I also find her Feeling to be more introverted as well. It is about her deep, intense inner world. The following two types seem more plausible to me. I lean towards thinking that she does in fact use Ni, but it is subjected to her Sensing, which is most always a dominant theme in her lyrics. She is bright and likely developed her Fi and Se early on, so you do see the tertiary function present as well. What do you think?

    ISFP - Fi, Se, Ni, Te (most likely)
    ENFJ - Fe, Ni, Se, Ti (less likely)

    IxFx types can be especially difficult to distinguish between when three or four of their functions are highly developed.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)


  2. #12
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    I'm going with INFP.

    Intuition isn't always about understanding and making symbols. It's abstract in the sense that it's about making unseen changes, but isn't always expressed that way. The understanding of abstract concepts is more about judgment than perception. Intuition is much more about non-conformism and seeing things in a way that deviates from the mainstream. Therefore, Intuition can manifest itself in an unconventional way of presenting, which is often what the INFP is good at. The ISFP is also good with symbols, but their viewpoints are more conventional.

    Intuition is more about challenging conventional ways of either thinking or doing. Hence, where the Sensor is the seeker of enjoyment and stability, the Intuitive is the iconoclast.

    The Sensor may change things, but only on the practical here-and-now level. Intuition is needed to change things, and so when the Sensor changes things, it's usually on a more subconscious level with a focus on here-and-now efficiency.

    The traditional concept of art is Intuitive in nature. Sensory art is more impressionistic -- a copying of the environment. The way Intuition looks at things sparks an instinctual inspiration of the mind, via sixth sense, whereas Sensing sees directly what's there.

    Looking for what something means takes place in Thinking or Feeling, where you analyze in terms of systems or people. To give art something of profound meaning, one must have developed a judgment function.

  3. #13
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    Judging by the dichotomies here, there is no way Bjork is an S.

    And like I said, arts and entertainment probably appeal more to N types, since it is not a practical discipline.

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Judging by the dichotomies here, there is no way Bjork is an S.
    Oh I agree based on that. Part of the confusion comes from all the different personality systems. I would lean towards an INFP as well. They can look a little like an INFJ, but tend to be much more passionate. INFJs more often get criticized for coming across as a little cool and distant.

    I may be making the mistake of looking at too finely tuned distinctions among artists. Maybe because i am aware of how incredibly non-concrete some expression can be. Some art is philosophy communicated through the senses using a different language of symbols which is more nuanced and direct than language. Maybe what I am debating are different levels and types of iNtuition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    The traditional concept of art is Intuitive in nature. Sensory art is more impressionistic -- a copying of the environment. The way Intuition looks at things sparks an instinctual inspiration of the mind, via sixth sense, whereas Sensing sees directly what's there.
    I wonder why the SP is called the artisan then. The distinctions between the two types you describe is not how i understood it. I thought both S and N could be creative or innovative, but the S trouble shoots using concrete objects while the N invents in their mind. I understood the mechanic who can creatively solve car troubles through trouble shooting was a good example of an S. I could see the N coming up with a new concept for an engine that hasn't existed before. In the example of the composer Beethoven is strongly N because he can create entirely in his mind without even the ability to hear. Even more importantly he created new systems of sound. His music is philosophy. Other composers create hearing and feeling the sounds concretely. An S practices the piano to enjoy and feel the sounds while an N practices to find personal relevance in the sounds.

    I have worked on a project with a couple of individuals I 'think' are Sensors. The repertoire they choose is at times beautiful and lyrical, and other times sensationally virtuosic with a bit of an 'um-pah' underpinning that bores me. I find those pieces that aren't about philosophy and meaning, but about the thrill of the sounds to be very Sensory based. They are also quick to see every detail in the score, and immediately know how to make it work mechanically on the instrument. They are very creative, but their process is diametrically opposed to mine. It is very functional, practical, precise, and effective. I would venture to say they are SJs, but imagine if you add risk taking to that mix? I think you can come up with an innovative artist.

    If the distinction you describe is correct, then the distinction I describe must come from some other source.

    Also, aren't SP's famous for their risk taking endeavors? Wouldn't that play into the arts and innovation? And remember that the arts (especially in popular culture) are about as image conscious as you can possibly be. The strongly iNtuitive artists i work with (including myself) are almost completely lost in the pressure to present image over content. From where I stand, pop culture art is not iNtuitive overall. Madonna's statement encapsulates this: "Now that I have everyone's attention, what do I have to say?"
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I wonder why the SP is called the artisan then. The distinctions between the two types you describe is not how i understood it. I thought both S and N could be creative or innovative, but the S trouble shoots using concrete objects while the N invents in their mind. I understood the mechanic who can creatively solve car troubles through trouble shooting was a good example of an S. I could see the N coming up with a new concept for an engine that hasn't existed before. In the example of the composer Beethoven is strongly N because he can create entirely in his mind without even the ability to hear. Even more importantly he created new systems of sound. His music is philosophy. Other composers create hearing and feeling the sounds concretely. An S practices the piano to enjoy and feel the sounds while an N practices to find personal relevance in the sounds.

    If the distinction you describe is correct, then the distinction I describe must come from some other source.

    Also, aren't SP's famous for their risk taking endeavors? Wouldn't that play into the arts and innovation? And remember that the arts (especially in popular culture) are about as image conscious as you can possibly be. The strongly iNtuitive artists i work with (including myself) are almost completely lost in the pressure to present image over content. From where I stand, pop culture art is not iNtuitive overall. Madonna's statement encapsulates this: "Now that I have everyone's attention, what do I have to say?"


    Oh I agree based on that. Part of the confusion comes from all the different personality systems. I would lean towards an INFP as well. They can look a little like an INFJ, but tend to be much more passionate. INFJs more often get criticized for coming across as a little cool and distant.

    I may be making the mistake of looking at too finely tuned distinctions among artists. Maybe because i am aware of how incredibly non-concrete some expression can be. Some art is philosophy communicated through the senses using a different language of symbols which is more nuanced and direct than language. Maybe what I am debating are different levels and types of iNtuition?
    Creativity is traditionally looked at as a cerebral process rather than physical, and so it does indeed correspond to Intuition. Sensors are creative in the sense that they are productive. They're more liable to change things by accident and then find that way of doing something is better after the fact.

    I think what is meant by the SP being the "Artisan" is their presentation of their physical selves. They're more about "skills" than anything.

    The definition of artisan is more likened to craftsman. And that involves more manipulation of the physical world than internal conceptualizing. So an Artisan artist is probably more adept at physical performance arts, such as dancing or competitive sports.

    An artisan painter will probably draw and paint what he sees, but the piece would be more showing off of drawing skills rather than expression of something from the imagination. An SP will be more concerned about the realism of the piece. Where the artisan becomes creative is in their resourcefulness -- being more efficient.

    An SP enjoys art or mechanics because it's an opportunity to work with their hands. The NF is more about expressing personal emotions and thoughts -- those are in the domain of Intuition, since they are internal concepts.

    The SP's lyrics are not normally introspective the way Bjork's are. Bjork may refer to concrete objects in her lyrics, but they serve a more mystical presence. Memories used in such a way is Intuitive. The way the Intuitive seeks knowledge for the sake of knowledge, the Intuitive also values memory for the sake of memory. The Sensor values memory if it serves a purpose in the here and now -- for either stabilizing or solving concrete problems.

    The way an SP performs is more earthy and concerned with popularity and more "scenic." An NF performance is more ethereal.

    It's a bit of a stretch since their music isn't the same, but compare Bjork and bands like My Chemical Romance. My Chemical Romance seems much more ISFP, since it's broody but more of an imitative fad rather than profoundly original -- it's more concerned with being a direct physical presence and being popular.

    EDIT: About SP's risk-taking endeavors, I think it's of a different nature than innovation. An SP is a risk taker when it comes to being a daredevil. Their risk taking involves putting themselves into harm's way in the hopes of a better payoff -- such as gambling. Their motivations are more practical.

    The N is more into new ways of expression or new ways of thinking for the fun of it or for the shock value, not really for any useful outcome. The N is more purposeful in challenging the norms.

  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Bjork may well be an iNtuitive, but there is reason to consider Sensing. The S function is not as locked down and uninspired as some earlier descriptions in this thread indicate. Creativity is about synthesis. It isn't about possessing one particular function. It is about the way in which multiple functions come together.

    Quote Originally Posted by typelogic.com
    ISFPs are the first to hear the different drummer. Many eagerly plunge into new fashions, avant garde experiences, 'hip' trends--some even setting the trends...

    Functional Analysis of the ISFP

    Introverted Feeling

    Feeling, unbridled by the external forces of society and substance, is the dominant function. ISFPs spontaneously develop their own codes and credos, about which they are quite sober and intense. ISFPs are questors, driven to find the pure and ideal, as personally and individually defined. Feeling may temporarily turn outward, but cannot be long sustained beyond its cloistered home.

    If the individual has values greater than herself, feeling may express itself in valiant acts of selflessness. Turned in upon self, however, it becomes an unscrupulous, capricious enigma, capable even of heinous acts of deception and treachery.

    Extraverted Sensing

    ISFPs keep a finger on the pulse of here and now. They are more adept at doing than considering, at acting than reflecting, at tasting than wondering. As do most SPs, ISFPs keenly sense color, sound, texture, and movement. It is not unusual for ISFPs to excel in sensory, motor, or kinesthetic abilities.

    ISFPs cherish their impulses. Some of the most beautiful, graceful, and artistic performances are the result of this drive for physical, sensate expression.

    Introverted iNtuition

    Tertiary intuition works best in the background of the ISFP's inner world. Perhaps this is the source of the "gut feeling" SPs consult in matters of chance. However "lucky" the ISFP may be, intuition as a means of communication is a poor servant, evidenced in spoonerisms, and non sequiturs and mixed metaphors.

    Extraverted Thinking

    The ISFP may employ Extraverted Thinking in external situations requiring closure. As is the case with inferior functions, such Thinking behaves in an all or nothing manner. Thus, as with other FP types, the ISFP's Extraverted Thinking is at risk for a lack of context and proportion. In most cases, persons of this type enjoy greater facility operating in the open-ended style of sensing, implying the opinions of feeling values in the indirect fashion characteristic of introverted functions.
    Regarding the non-sequiturs and mixed metaphors, that is typical in alot of the 'coffee shop' style artsy fartsiness. I do read some of that in Bjork's lyrics, but some do seem more developed than that. There is a kind of mix that seems to develop in the direction of Ni as she matures.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)


  7. #17
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I've been reflecting on your thoughts here, and this is what I've come up with fwiw.

    You are right that the iNtuition she uses is Ni. It is also interesting to see that her use of reconciling dichotomies has become more effective as she has matured. Her early attempts are somewhat arbitrary and clique. This suggests to me that it is not her primary function, but is in there some place. I guess what causes me to doubt the INFJ profile for her is that her Sensing seems much stronger than her Thinking. Her Thinking function is nearly absent in her work. I also find her Feeling to be more introverted as well. It is about her deep, intense inner world. The following two types seem more plausible to me. I lean towards thinking that she does in fact use Ni, but it is subjected to her Sensing, which is most always a dominant theme in her lyrics. She is bright and likely developed her Fi and Se early on, so you do see the tertiary function present as well. What do you think?

    ISFP - Fi, Se, Ni, Te (most likely)
    ENFJ - Fe, Ni, Se, Ti (less likely)

    IxFx types can be especially difficult to distinguish between when three or four of their functions are highly developed.

    I truly do not "feel" that Bjork is an S. I response so strongly to her music and lyrics that I can not imagine her being an S. I know that that's not very scientific or spelled out but the best I can do right now. I know that I have many artists (lyrically) that I love that are definately S types (Joni Mitchell, Shawn Colvin) I see their lyrics and their music as very S oriented) I hadn't considered an ENFJ a particularly private one (she'd have to be) I'm private but no where near her level. I didn't think INFP but I'm working on that thought now.
    Last edited by Littlelostnf; 08-13-2007 at 04:13 PM.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    I truly do not "feel" that Bjork is an S. I response so strongly to her music and lyrics that I can not imagine her being an S. I know that that's not very scientific or spelled out but the best I can do right now. I know that I have many artists (lyrically) that I love that are definately S types (Joni Mitchell, Shawn Colvin) I see their lyrics and their music as very S oriented) I hadn't considered an ENFJ a particularly private one (she'd have to be) I'm private but no where near her level. I didn't think INFP but I'm working on that thought now.
    It is complicated to type someone based on public image. You could well be correct since you have delved into her expression more deeply. There is definitely an ideal there consistent with Ni, that is, the valuing of contradiction and paradox. The heart of her expression seems very Fi to me, with some Ni leaning. But it's a tough call. This is a fascinating discussion. I was thinking about this a bit more and thought it could be worth illustrating my point about how Ni tends to look for systems that reconcile paradox over the overt statement of contradictions, which can at times be simply non-sequiters.

    Bjork's lyrics "Violently happy" are one example of dealing in contradiction. Her poem focuses on restatement and example of actions illustrating that idea. For fun I decided to write a poem based on the same basic concept. Since extremes of emotion can be experienced in much the same way in our deepest, most intense corners of our minds, I attempted to find a system that could reconcile this. I used dream imagery since it reveals our deepest part and can make sense out of contradiction effortlessly. Maybe this will illustrate what I was talking about.

    My example of Ni text inspired by the same theme of contradiction as Bjork's Violently Happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by toonia
    I lost myself in bliss,
    I lost myself in angst
    Each time waking up,
    engulfed in the same.

    With the clarity of dreaming
    on vacant, anguished face
    I become a river
    that eats away its banks

    With gluttonous hunger
    and empty embrace
    I drink in mountain peaks,
    and with the wind I race.

    Blistered with burning ice,
    cooled by winds of flame.
    Bjork's lyric "Violently Happy"
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjork
    since i met you
    this small town hasn't got room
    for my big feelings

    violently happy
    'cause i love you

    violently happy
    but you're not here

    violently happy
    come calm me down
    before i get into trouble

    i tip-toe down to the shore
    stand by the ocean
    make it roar at me
    and i roar back

    violently happy
    'cause i love you

    violently happy
    but you're not here

    violently happy
    overemotional

    violently happy
    i'll get into trouble
    real soon
    if you don't get here
    baby

    violently happy
    'cause i love you

    violently happy
    i'm aiming too high

    violently happy
    it will get me into trouble
    violently happy
    i'm driving my car
    too fast
    with ecstatic music on

    violently happy
    i'm getting too drunk

    violently happy
    i'm daring people
    to jump off roofs with me

    only you
    can calm me down
    i'm aiming too high

    soothe me
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 08-14-2007 at 10:39 AM.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)


  9. #19
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It is complicated to type someone based on public image. You could well be correct since you have delved into her expression more deeply. There is definitely an ideal there consistent with Ni, that is, the valuing of contradiction and paradox. The heart of her expression seems very Fi to me, with some Ni leaning. But it's a tough call. This is a fascinating discussion. I was thinking about this a bit more and thought it could be worth illustrating my point about how Ni tends to look for systems that reconcile paradox over the overt statement of contradictions, which can at times be simply non-sequiters.
    You are correct it is hard to base it on her public image. Thing is with Bjork she doesn't (seem to at least) put on any type of image. It seems with her very much what you see is what you get...the quirky, the serious, the angry, the tender. It doesn't seem as if she really cares or could put on a public persona. Interestingly enough I will agree with the Fi but I also feel that just as I am balanced fairly well between Fe/Fi she could also be. Her musical and lyrical expression seems to me to reach out to her audience as opposed to making them come to her. I think to put all INFJ's in to a box and say they would present the same way is over simplifying things.

    Bjork's lyrics "Violently happy" are one example of dealing in contradiction. Her poem focuses on restatement and example of actions illustrating that idea.
    One of the things that leads me to NF is that onlike some lyrics that are definately just lyrics! Bjorks lyrics are always poetry put to music.

    For fun I decided to write a poem based on the same basic concept. Since extremes of emotion can be experienced in much the same way in our deepest, most intense corners of our minds, I attempted to find a system that could reconcile this. I used dream imagery since it reveals our deepest part and can make sense out of contradiction effortlessly. Maybe this will illustrate what I was talking about.
    I think that Bjork lyrics are an example of def Fe as they can be felt by those who listen/read them. They are not so inner dream that they seem inaccessible or "above" her audience....and yet you can get a glimpes of her thoughts.

    My example of Ni text inspired by the same theme of contradiction as Bjork's Violently Happy.
    Originally Posted by toonia
    I lost myself in bliss,
    I lost myself in angst
    Each time waking up,
    engulfed in the same.

    With the clarity of dreaming
    on vacant, anguished face
    I become a river
    that eats away its banks

    With gluttonous hunger
    and empty embrace
    I drink in mountain peaks,
    and with the wind I race.

    Blistered with burning ice,
    cooled by winds of flame
    .

    Was that something you'd already written or did you write that to illustrate how you think a very Ni/Fe writer would have put Bjork's thoughts below?

    Bjork's lyric "Violently Happy"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bjork
    since i met you
    this small town hasn't got room
    for my big feelings

    violently happy
    'cause i love you

    violently happy
    but you're not here

    violently happy
    come calm me down
    before i get into trouble

    i tip-toe down to the shore
    stand by the ocean
    make it roar at me
    and i roar back

    violently happy
    'cause i love you

    violently happy
    but you're not here

    violently happy
    overemotional

    violently happy
    i'll get into trouble
    real soon
    if you don't get here
    baby

    violently happy
    'cause i love you

    violently happy
    i'm aiming too high

    violently happy
    it will get me into trouble
    violently happy
    i'm driving my car
    too fast
    with ecstatic music on

    violently happy
    i'm getting too drunk

    violently happy
    i'm daring people
    to jump off roofs with me

    only you
    can calm me down
    i'm aiming too high

    soothe me
    In her poem above I def didn't sense Fi...she wrote about her feelings and didn't hide them in words but gave us her "story" with naked honesty. Seems to me pretty Fe.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    I found a really fantastic interview with Bjork and Charlie Rose. It is long but a very interesting look into her personality.
    YouTube - Bjork Charlie Rose Interview

    Here is a much shorter one with British CH5 also offers a glimpse.
    YouTube - Bjork Interview British CH5
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

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