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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    INFJs don't tend to manifest that "fencing" attitude (IMO). They're more likely to try to use the opportunity to facilitate some kind of personal connection. I think of INTJs as the "fencers" when asked about personal or private matters.
    Really? I actually find that typical of INFJ (it's easy for them to gloss over the truly personal, at best just offering the "canned" shell until they know they can totally trust you) ... although perhaps INTJ women use it as well.

    I remember watching videos and reading the blog of a male INFJ author I enjoy (Stephen R. Donaldson)... and it was this very thing that helped me to realize he was INFJ w/ a strong Ti, and not an INTP. He is VERY close-lipped about anything personal... things that I would not find worth protecting at all if someone asked me.

    It is basically an attempt to control the dissemination of personal information. Other types generally seem to believe that can impart more information and ride out / block / avoid any attempts that someone makes to use the information inappropriately.
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  2. #12

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    Thank you for that extensive analysis, FineLine! Your contributions to these threads are simply golden.

    I think you've put the finger on her dominant Ni, however, I also think the T that comes through...:

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Meantime, the things that are important to her seem to be expressed in Te ways--via logical constructions, a deep-seated need for intellectual challenge, precision of expression, etc.
    ... is Ti rather than Te.

    Before going any further I'd love to hear what the female INFJs here say to FineLine's analysis...?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Oh yes. One more note. When asked anything personal, Blanchett usually deflects, parries, and self-deprecates. There's a "fencing" attitude that pops up whenever anyone tries to dig into her personal life. (The big exception would be her canned anecdotes about her childhood or her husband.)

    INFJs don't tend to manifest that "fencing" attitude (IMO). They're more likely to try to use the opportunity to facilitate some kind of personal connection. I think of INTJs as the "fencers" when asked about personal or private matters.

    I think you're onto something. Fe, the INFJ auxilliary, is given to self-disclosure as a way of connecting with another person. If someone is very tight-lipped about her personal life, she probably doesn't have an Extraverted Feeling preference.

    Then again, this could just be an instance of a celebrity trying to keep some details of her life away from the prying eyes and ears of the media and the public.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Really? I actually find that typical of INFJ (it's easy for them to gloss over the truly personal, at best just offering the "canned" shell until they know they can totally trust you) ... although perhaps INTJ women use it as well.

    I remember watching videos and reading the blog of a male INFJ author I enjoy (Stephen R. Donaldson)... and it was this very thing that helped me to realize he was INFJ w/ a strong Ti, and not an INTP. He is VERY close-lipped about anything personal... things that I would not find worth protecting at all if someone asked me.

    It is basically an attempt to control the dissemination of personal information. Other types generally seem to believe that can impart more information and ride out / block / avoid any attempts that someone makes to use the information inappropriately.
    Granted that INFJs "control" information and may be very close-lipped about anything personal. But still, they are the "counselor" type and will try to control information in a way that guards the feelings of others or even turns the interchange into some kind of a sensitivity session (Fe used as a way to manipulate the transaction while still maintaining an F sensitivity).

    INTJs, on the other hand, may seem almost to get an evil glee about parrying and deflecting the questioning. It may be quite skillful and graceful in the sense of the grace and skill of a fencing match, but it won't take into account the feelings of their interlocuter in an INFJ "counselor" sense. (Hence the martial metaphor of "fencing.") As I register it, the INTJ way of handling such questions comes closer to the way an ENTP would toy with a questioner, rather than the way an INFJ would gracefully turn the question back on the interlocutor to facilitate the interpersonal connection.

    IOW, I agree that both types control and limit information. And I agree that both types can be very graceful and skillfull in their methods. But there is a definite difference in the tools that they use to carry out that task of "controlling and limiting", IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethy View Post
    Then again, this could just be an instance of a celebrity trying to keep some details of her life away from the prying eyes and ears of the media and the public.
    Granted. That could be. For example, I could even see an INFP becoming very "whimsical" and using that as a shield to hide behind. (Engaging in silliness to deflect uncomfortable personal queries.) Everyone needs a little privacy.

    But I'll just note that the "fencing" business is kind of a "vibes" thing. That was more of a footnote than a solid identifier of type. Frankly, I would be more interested in what people think of the main body of points that I raised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Thank you for that extensive analysis, FineLine! Your contributions to these threads are simply golden.

    I think you've put the finger on her dominant Ni, however, I also think the T that comes through...:



    ... is Ti rather than Te.

    Before going any further I'd love to hear what the female INFJs here say to FineLine's analysis...?
    Actually, I was in a hurry and being imprecise there. The "logical constructions" and "precision" were demonstrated in the process of her careful construction of unrehearsed answers on the fly--you could sort of see the gears grinding in her head on certain answers, as opposed to her quicker and rehearsed "canned" answers about childhood, etc. So for the former types of answers, I interpreted that demonstration of logic and precision as being Te visibly at work.

    The deep-seated need for intellectual challenge comes from somewhere else, I agree. I'm wondering if that doesn't spring at least partly from Ni. It seems so central to her character (and the character of other INTJs that I know).

  7. #17
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethy View Post
    I think you're onto something. Fe, the INFJ auxilliary, is given to self-disclosure as a way of connecting with another person. If someone is very tight-lipped about her personal life, she probably doesn't have an Extraverted Feeling preference.

    Then again, this could just be an instance of a celebrity trying to keep some details of her life away from the prying eyes and ears of the media and the public.
    How are you defining personal life? I'm curious what people think Fe self-disclosure looks like.

    I actually agree with you. Many of the wiser celebrities (regardless of their E/I preference) keep their personal lives out of the tabloids. Maybe this is what people are mistaking as Fe lack of "self-disclosure"?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Really? I actually find that typical of INFJ (it's easy for them to gloss over the truly personal, at best just offering the "canned" shell until they know they can totally trust you) ... although perhaps INTJ women use it as well.

    I remember watching videos and reading the blog of a male INFJ author I enjoy (Stephen R. Donaldson)... and it was this very thing that helped me to realize he was INFJ w/ a strong Ti, and not an INTP. He is VERY close-lipped about anything personal... things that I would not find worth protecting at all if someone asked me.

    It is basically an attempt to control the dissemination of personal information. Other types generally seem to believe that can impart more information and ride out / block / avoid any attempts that someone makes to use the information inappropriately.
    I've read that INFJs have a need to self-disclose, though, too. I don't know how that plays out in a situation like this. I know once I get started talking it can be hard to restrain myself from saying more than I should and possibly feeling like I'm giving people ammo or at least a bad impression. Of course I'm not an actress, either. I suppose between having acting skills and being stung a few times, a person might learn some discretion.

    Edit: I was too slow. You guys already hit all this.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    She's very well-rounded, isn't she?

    I clicked around on Youtube. Although she exhibits definite E in some of the older clips, I can't get a 'lock' on any of the dimentions.
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    Okay, I went through the material again quickly. Let me try one more time here.

    The Academy Awards: This seems to be CB at her most "F." It's a very F occasion, she is being dragged through a lot of F questions, she is clearly trying to exude a lot of F (starting right from her giddy entry with the champagne glass); but as the interview progresses it's as though she keeps trodding clumsily on the biggest F moments and deflating them. For example, when asked what she felt upon hearing her name called, she had nothing to offer. When asked what the award "meant" to her, she eagerly launched into the standard, stock Academy Awards speech about what a big honor it was to be to be chosen by her peers, especially given that many of them knew Hepburn personally; but the speech goes on too long and seems drained by a chilly delivery (though carefully constructed Te-wise, I suspect), and by the end even CB herself winces. It's the big F moment of the night, and it falls flat. As do some other similar F moments. About the only moment that goes right is her managing to hit the right notes when talking about Katherine Hepburn's death and her own relations with KH's family.

    I can see how the Academy Award clip could go either way. One could interpret CB as an INFJ deflating the emotional moments out of caution and reserve, or as an INTJ trying to deliberately exude lots of fake, practiced F at an event that's supposed to be heavy on F.

    I've certainly seen male INFJs who deliberately tended to downplay and deflate their emotions to the point of seeming T. Hell, I do it myself as a male INFP. But it would seem strange for a female INFJ to have so much difficulty accessing a decent F at key moments. Especially given that it's a public occasion that clearly calls for gobs of F. As they say, if a guy or a gal is striking the middle ground between T and F, then the guy is probably F (and trying to mimic T), and the gal is probably T (and trying to mimic F). The latter seems to be the case at the Academy awards.

    CB comes off more as an INTJ struggling valiantly to rise to an F occasion rather an INFJ trying to downplay and deflate the emotional content of the moment out of habit. Time and again I'm struck by her working up to a grand F moment and then saying something anticlimactic. For example, she says, "working with Martin Scorcese was so... [dramatic pause] ...educational!" I kept expecting a big gust of F at such moments, but the emotional tone came out muted down to zero.

    As for the transcribed interview and on Letterman: In these two instances she is allowed to clown around more, and as a result she seems more natural and relaxed. She reveals more of her personal philosophy (especially in the interview); but she also seems more caustic, and sometimes she uses joking and clowning as a way to derail the interview and shut down access to things she doesn't want to address.

    That seems kind of NT to me. NTs use humor both as a tool to open up to others and also as a way to deflect examination or criticism, whereas NFs can be kind of humorless and a bit overserious when accessing their personal side, by comparison.

    In the transcribed interview CB waxes enthusiastic about her marriage, but apparently that's old business because the interviewer refers to previous interviews on the subject. Meantime, she and the interviewer trade jokes endlessly to the point where the interviewer has trouble getting straight answers from her and the interview keeps getting derailed. For example, she keeps joking her way past his questions about the cosmetics flap at the Academy Awards. Finally on the last page of the interview, the interviewer asks her repeatedly about family and children issues, and he gets nothing from her other than the fact that she eventually wants four children. It's as though the interviewer is getting desperate to showcase the "human interest" side before the end of the interview, and he keeps hitting a brick wall.

    In the Letterman interview, CB is looking cool and composed and hence more natural than at the Academy Awards, but by the same token some of her jokes and comments are so barbed that even Letterman seems to find her a handful. It's only toward the end that they warm up a bit together and he is able to get her talking about her children.

    I should also add that I'm entirely comfortable with CB's minimal exhibition of F. As a male F myself, I downplay the hell out of my own F. I enjoy women with a muted or nonexistent F because it keeps the exchange cooler and more intellectual. (Sometimes being around a female with an active F makes me jam up and bury my own F for fear that she will overstimulate my F and cause me to embarrass myself.)

    As for how I register CB's F: In the Academy Awards clip I see CB trying to exude lots of F at certain times, but it's not ringing true. It keeps on clipping off at the peaks or falling flat. And meantime there's a jerkiness and lack of ease in her demeanor that tells me she's trying way too hard on that occasion. About the only time she seems to really loosen up and have fun is when she calls the reporter an asshole.

    In the transcribed interview and on Letterman, by contrast, her F seems much cooler or even missing altogether at times. But she also seems more fun and more natural. Instead of directly trying to emote F, she uses humor and silliness to loosen up and grant the audience access to her more personal side. And when the humor shuts down at the end of the transcribed interview when the interviewer starts pressing her about family issues, then we lose access to her personal side again.

    But in any case F doesn't really seem to be in play much for the transcribed interview and on Letterman. On those two occasions it's more about clowning and laughing and getting loose and comfortable enough to allow the audience to see inside a bit. Again, that seems kind of NT to me. NTs use humor as a tool to get past awkwardness and reveal themselves while retaining "deniability."

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