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  1. #11
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clairebear8 View Post
    that's rough... i think she's changed a lot since her younger years though.. she's doing a lot a lot of humanitarian work now... and watch this interview!! she looks pretty F to me... she might just have been unhealthy before?

    YouTube - Angelina Jolie
    I watched the interview, and I find it compatible with T. Yes, she is touched by the fates of this world's unfortunate, but I like to think that Fs don't have a complete monopoly on empathy. She seems logical in her approach to humanitarian work to me. (Though I suppose Ts don't have a monopoly on that and to be fair, she does acknowledge other people as having presented the logic to her. Still, it's what she emphasizes.) For those who don't care to watch the clip, I transcribed the last half:

    AJ: ...They said he was probably just going to die because of the reality of how many people were in that situation. And it was my first experience, so I thought, well we should get him out of here, we should do something, we should get him hospital care... And you know, realizing that this is one kid in thousands, and you can't do that really, it doesn't work that way. So he would die, and he was alone, and he was really scared, and he was just a kid.

    Interviewer: Did you hear any more about him?

    AJ: (inaudible)

    Interviewer: When you see something like that, do you feel very small against the enormity of the problem?

    AJ: Yeah, maybe, but no, at the same time I think it makes you realize the importance of every single individual. Yes, it is an enormous problem, but it is true, they say if one person lives... Each individual counts. If there's twenty million people and one kid lives, one family makes it, then... Every individual does count, so that's what that makes me think. That makes me think that (...) Because I had that experience, maybe that next kid I'll know what to do, I'll be prepared, or I'll put that much more effort into helping that next kid, because that other kid haunts me so much.
    I don't think it's incompatible with ESTP (i.e. surefire evidence of F), and I don't pick up an F vibe from her elsewhere.

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I watched a bio thing about her, I think. I got the feeling that she was an SP but that it was hard for her to get her feet under her because her parents were so lenient that she really had to go over the into self-destructive behavior in order to rebel (does that make sense?), which gave her a kind of dark flavor.

    My grandpa was an ESTP, I think, and we just instinctively adored each other. He was a very smart man despite his very limited education and very charming, dapper, and opportunistic. He was generally decent and generous, but his morals were unconventional. For whatever that's worth.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I'm surprised INFJs don't value the ESTP. The INFJ senses the motives in people, but the ESTP can identify all the false tricks. The INFJ will analyze the situation from every possible perspective while the ESTP acts. The two could potentially work quite well in tandem, assuming they have mutual respect and goals.
    I read somewhere that ESTP/INFJ are one of those rare opposite type combos that work very well.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
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  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    athenian200, your prejudicial and degrading comments about other types border on hate speech at times like these. If the above comment was intended as a joke, I suggest you clarify, otherwise: See a therapist.
    Well, maybe it's because I've talked to Athenian a great deal in the last few weeks, but I perceived this not as a statement meant to judge the mentioned types from some "objective" perspective (which is what racists and others do -- example: "All black people are universally evil/lesser than white people") but simply as a statement that these types would not sit well with Ath if they had to spend time together.

    Quote Originally Posted by At200
    (I might be a little biased against them because I'm an INFJ, and I'm obviously going to expect that an ESTP is disgusting and insane. It's just natural for me to do so.)
    i.e., "we're opposites, so naturally I'm going to have a bad reaction to my opposite." The word "obviously" should tip us off what was meant, where "obviously" = "according to the known theory."

    Quote Originally Posted by At200
    However, I assume that SP's just perceive and react to what's obviously going on around them, and can't think ahead without great effort. They don't even value or process things, they just react. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just personally couldn't respect or like anyone who behaved that way.
    "i.e., there's nothing wrong with their process, but I just personally still have trouble respecting/liking people who use that process."

    (That comment was worded much better than the first.)

    --

    For my own brief comment, I had just assumed AJ was ESFP from a glance... but reading the excerpts here, I can definitely see cause for why a "T" reading is possible and probably likely... So I do not see any large warning signs so far that would signal the analysis to be far off-track... I do not have any doubts about the ESxP part.

    Also, Fe is the tertiary for an ESTP -- don't underestimate their power to develop it, they can come off as very altruistic and charming in a social context, even if ultimately they are "gamers." [i.e., looking to play/game the system to create the desired outcome.]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Also, Fe is the tertiary for an ESTP -- don't underestimate their power to develop it, they can come off as very altruistic and charming in a social context, even if ultimately they are "gamers." [i.e., looking to play/game the system to create the desired outcome.]
    my uncle does this ><*...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  6. #16
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, maybe it's because I've talked to Athenian a great deal in the last few weeks, but I perceived this not as a statement meant to judge the mentioned types from some "objective" perspective (which is what racists and others do -- example: "All black people are universally evil/lesser than white people") but simply as a statement that these types would not sit well with Ath if they had to spend time together.
    True, some of her statements were relative, but how do you like the sound of this: "I wasn't expecting a black person to be able to mask their general lack of higher processes so well"?

    Also, the implicit belief that her subjective view of ESTPs was relevant for the discussion at hand belied the postulated awareness of bias. Actions speak louder than words.

    I freely admit to not exactly having been nice, but was I wrong?

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    True, some of her statements were relative, but how do you like the sound of this: "I wasn't expecting a black person to be able to mask their general lack of higher processes so well"?
    Well, it is a misplaced analogy on your part, because while race has no significant bearing on cognitive functions, the "higher functions" being discussed are the very functions described in the MBTI.

    (Ath200 is simply saying that cognitive ability and self-awareness is a higher function, evolutionarily speaking; and many people who focus on Se do not have to engage those parts of the brain -- they are using the older, more "primitive" ...and there is ANOTHER socially loaded word, I only used it to point THAT out ... part of the brain, even if they still have the ability to switch over and engage the more-evolutionarily-recent functions.)

    I think the use of the word "higher" -- which it was supposed to refer to the more abstract thinking/feeling parts of the brain -- unfortunately has very negative connotations in a socially informal discussion, so I would have avoided that term. And the phrasing does sound condescending if you don't know Ath200.

    I suppose I'm simply saying the motivations weren't what came across, from what I know; it's just the typical trap that an analytical person unused to social dialog tends to stumble into.

    I freely admit to not exactly having been nice, but was I wrong?
    Guilty on both counts, in my way of thinking... but I can understand why you made the mistake, and if I did not know Ath200, I would have probably thought similarly to you.

    So no biggie, I'm just being the INTP version of anal regarding slight nuances in perception.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think the use of the word "higher" -- which it was supposed to refer to the more abstract thinking/feeling parts of the brain -- unfortunately has very negative connotations, so I would have avoided that term. And the phrasing does sound condescending if you don't know Ath200.
    Cause it isn't at all condescending to say
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I wasn't assuming that [she wasn't intelligent]because she was a sensor, I was assuming that because she was specifically SP. I tend to assume that SJ's are reasonably intelligent because they have good memories and evaluate things against standards. I assume NP's are intelligent because they can see patterns in things. I assume NJ's are intelligent because they can see things from different perspectives.
    I'm rather curious to see you justify that position as a matter of perspective or improper phrasing. I thought the point being made was quite clear.

    If someone said "I assumed she wasn't intelligent because she was black...I tend to assume asians work hard, white people can think outside the box, and spanish people are more openminded" I don't think it would be dismissed as a matter of perspective.

    And for the record, there is a racial difference on IQ tests, on average, so it is as relevant as type (ie, not particularly). It still doesn't make it acceptable or accurate to go around calling people stupid based on their race. Likewise with type.

  9. #19
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, it is a misplaced analogy on your part, because while race has no significant bearing on cognitive functions, the "higher functions" being discussed are the very functions described in the MBTI.
    All right, you've convinced me.

    I caught a vibe of channeling negative energy at ESXPs rather than objectively helping out the typing to the best of her ability, but a vibe is not enough. athenian200, I hereby retract the "you're bordering on hate speech, see a therapist" comment. My apologies.

    Edit: Darnit, Randomnity, now I don't know what to think! I will follow you guys' exchange closely.

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I caught a vibe of channeling negative energy at ESXPs rather than objectively helping out the typing to the best of her ability
    Considering the social alienation most of us have suffered, I'm betting some of that does exist and might have snuck through... It just wasn't the primary motivation, I thought.

    athenian200, I hereby retract the "you're bordering on hate speech, see a therapist" comment. My apologies.


    ... this has to be a trick...

    You can't just give up like that. Who are you and what have you done with Economica?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Cause it isn't at all condescending to say
    lol, all right, all right -- I have flashed in, pointed out another interpretation/nuance in what was going on... and now I can fly away because my work here is done.

    I do not think that Ath200 is not a closet racist/typist... but will have to provide their own defense at this point and either reinforce or disprove that accusation on their own, I know when it is time to butt out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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