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  1. #51
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aderack View Post
    Yeah, so -- if you insist that he's never actually been an INTP, where do you get the conclusion that this embodies his personality traits? I mean, what exactly are you basing this on?
    When a Time Lord regenerates, he keeps a select few personality traits, which remain constant throughout his entire life. He then changes literally everything else about himself. In the case of the doctor those key core traits are INTP through and through, though the rest of his personality... never has been.
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  2. #52
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    He's an obvious Ti user. The son of a bitch is a gadget junkie.

    He still reminds me of myself personality-wise, probably because we're both Ne-doms (and I'm not exactly your typical ENFP ).
    You don't need to be a Ti user in order to like gadgets. And most of the other Doctors liked gadgets, too.

    You do seem to be a typical male ENFP, from what I see of your posts. If you are relating to the NE dom part of 10, why not for 11? I'm guessing it's because you also relate to the Fi. And 10 was Fi overload, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    When a Time Lord regenerates, he keeps a select few personality traits, which remain constant throughout his entire life. He then changes literally everything else about himself. In the case of the doctor those key core traits are INTP through and through, though the rest of his personality... never has been.
    What do you think the "key core traits" are for an INTP?

    Do you read a lot of the fan fiction, because I don't remember any instance in which it was stated that he keeps some things and changes others during regeneration. Source please.

  3. #53
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You do seem to be a typical male ENFP, from what I see of your posts.
    Really? I'd think I'm far from a typical ENFP. How am I typical?

    If you are relating to the NE dom part of 10, why not for 11?
    Eleven is just a poor imitation of Ten, so he somewhat resembles me as well; but I would not turn down a chance to fuck Karen Gillan. Eleven deserves to be hung for that.

    Also, his outfit is terrible.

    I'm guessing it's because you also relate to the Fi. And 10 was Fi overload, imo.
    Ten is very Fe, as opposed to Fi. Ten was not much of an internal feeler, so much as one who believed strongly in the value of others and in helping others. Much moreso than the grumpy and often-selfish Eleven, who is certainly Ne-Ti as well but rather Fe-deficient (not surprising, it's his tertiary).

    What do you think the "key core traits" are for an INTP?

    Do you read a lot of the fan fiction, because I don't remember any instance in which it was stated that he keeps some things and changes others during regeneration. Source please.
    He consistently shows profound deductive ability and ability to creatively problem-solve by working around with wild possibilities, in every incarnation, even the most NTJ ones (One, Six, and Seven). He shows consistently hyper-strong Ti even in incarnations where he completely lacks Fe (pinning him as a non Ti-Fe type in those incarnations), and consistently relatively strong in Ne in incarnations where he completely lacks Si (pinning him as a non Ne-Si type in those incarnations). Since his consistently-shown traits are Ti and Ne with an absence of any other consistently strong functions, and his Ti is more prominent than his Ne, this would pin him down as an overall Ti-Ne character. What is Ti-Ne? Oh, right, INTP.
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  4. #54
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Really? I'd think I'm far from a typical ENFP. How am I typical?
    ENFP boys seems to play up the aggressive factor because there is a misconception that Fi=pansy. It's not about that. Fi is mostly about personal values and authenticity - personal being the operative word. And so ENFP men sometimes can come off as ruder than they normally are, in order to assert their masculinity. Once they get a bit older and realize there is nothing pansy-ish about expressing healthy feelings and that the F in feeling doesn't always mean emo, then they relax into their fun-loving selves.

    I'm guessing that your posts (and even your user-title) may be a little more stern or harsh than you are in real life. The whole "I don't care" thing. I don't know. But there's nothing wrong with caring.

    In addition, you tend to define other people through how you define yourself, which is very Fi ("this person is like me, so he must be xyz" - rather than "based on the facts and empirical evidence, I deduce that this person is xyz"). I bet you are probably the kind of person who gives gifts that you think are nice and that you might want for yourself. As opposed to giving a gift that the recipient would actually request for him/herself. But that's neither here nor there. It's just my impression.

    Eleven is just a poor imitation of Ten, so he somewhat resembles me as well; but I would not turn down a chance to fuck Karen Gillan. Eleven deserves to be hung for that.
    I see the imitation factor - the Ne gone wild, yes. But I think that's the writer's fault. They are still writing for the very popular Tennant. Which leads me to another point... when have you ever seen an ENTP of any sort that well loved by the public? People loved the hell out of Tennant. I, in fact, could not stand his mushy portrayal of the Doctor. He never said anything of substance - so many details always left out... "timey wimey" is NOT an answer to a specific question about time travel. it just isn't. That sort of non-response made me hate him. You would never find a Ti user who spoke that way.

    11 seems selfish because you don't understand Ti-Fe. In this last episode, he let the one boy wander off to get his headphones because he was so busy trying figure that mess out to save everyone, that he forgot to save just the one. 10 wouldn't have done that. He would have sacrificed all to save one. And while he was sacrificing everyone else, he would have looked them in the eye smugly and said "I'm so so sorry". God, I'm glad he's gone, haahahaha.

    And it's not surprising that you would like Karen. She is very pretty, and very Fi.

    Also, his outfit is terrible.
    I think his outfit is sexy. And my INTP bf dresses like that.

    Ten is very Fe, as opposed to Fi. Ten was not much of an internal feeler, so much as one who believed strongly in the value of others and in helping others. Much moreso than the grumpy and often-selfish Eleven, who is certainly Ne-Ti as well but rather Fe-deficient (not surprising, it's his tertiary).
    Ten is Fi. I've never seen him use Ti in any real way. He often appeals to people's emotions, rather than to logic. Seriously, most of his battles were done by convincing people to be better people. Rose ate that shit up.

    He consistently shows profound deductive ability and ability to creatively problem-solve by working around with wild possibilities, in every incarnation, even the most NTJ ones (One, Six, and Seven). He shows consistently hyper-strong Ti even in incarnations where he completely lacks Fe (pinning him as a non Ti-Fe type in those incarnations), and consistently relatively strong in Ne in incarnations where he completely lacks Si (pinning him as a non Ne-Si type in those incarnations). Since his consistently-shown traits are Ti and Ne with an absence of any other consistently strong functions, and his Ti is more prominent than his Ne, this would pin him down as an overall Ti-Ne character. What is Ti-Ne? Oh, right, INTP.
    I disagree with your conclusion. He definitely has more Ne than Ti, in every incarnation. His ability to think on his feet and make quick workarounds... I've never in my life seen an INTP like that. They often need to retreat for long periods to plan things out, even conversations. Ne doms are quick on their feet, as the Doctor always is.

  5. #55
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    From the very start, David Tennant's Doctor was bleeding Fi all over the place. As soon as he wakes up he has that long, fairly out-of-character "who am I?" speech, where everyone has to stand around and watch while he decides on his own identity. Then he decides on the spot, for no particular reason, that he's a "no second chances" kind of guy. And then just to prove a point, because he happens to be annoyed in that moment, he takes down Harriet Jones and diverts the timeline, opening the door for Harold Saxon and all the Children of Earth nonsense.

    If he were showing Fe, he'd be listening to Harriet Jones and understanding where she came from, even if he didn't personally agree. He'd be aware of the circumstances around him when he woke, and instead of making everything about him, he would figure out the most appropriate course of action. Instead he makes a big self-conscious show of his own rudeness. Oh well, that's who he is now; he's a rude person. Got to be true to that. Rude and not ginger.

    With Tenth Doctor, it's always about him. It's about what he wants, what he feels is right, what he decides on a whim that other people must do. If he wants to take a while to deflower Queen Elizabeth instead of showing up for an appointment, that's what he does. Look at the arbitrary way he treats Jack, picking him up, dropping him off, telling him what to do, berating him for perfectly reasonable behavior that the Doctor just doesn't like at the moment. It's all justified, because as he keeps saying, he's the only authority that matters.

    Look at the way that he goes out, crying in the cafe at the thought of losing his identity then screaming at Wilf in the booth because he feels, despite having already sidestepped it once, that it's not fair that he has to regenerate, and then -- in the end -- crying again, alone, because he doesn't want to go. Although he knows perfectly well that he'll live on. He's just too attached to who he is at the moment.

    Hell, the description used over and over for his Doctor is "The Lonely God". Give me a break. How self-absorbed can you get?

  6. #56
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    From here:
    As an ENFP, your primary mode of living is focused externally, where you take things in primarily via your intuition. Your secondary mode is internal, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit in with your personal value system.

    ENFPs are warm, enthusiastic people, typically very bright and full of potential. They live in the world of possibilities, and can become very passionate and excited about things. Their enthusiasm lends them the ability to inspire and motivate others, more so than we see in other types. They can talk their way in or out of anything. They love life, seeing it as a special gift, and strive to make the most out of it.

    ENFPs have an unusually broad range of skills and talents. They are good at most things which interest them. Project-oriented, they may go through several different careers during their lifetime. To onlookers, the ENFP may seem directionless and without purpose, but ENFPs are actually quite consistent, in that they have a strong sense of values which they live with throughout their lives. Everything that they do must be in line with their values. An ENFP needs to feel that they are living their lives as their true Self, walking in step with what they believe is right. They see meaning in everything, and are on a continuous quest to adapt their lives and values to achieve inner peace. They're constantly aware and somewhat fearful of losing touch with themselves. Since emotional excitement is usually an important part of the ENFP's life, and because they are focused on keeping "centered", the ENFP is usually an intense individual, with highly evolved values.

  7. #57
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    ENFP boys seems to play up the aggressive factor because there is a misconception that Fi=pansy. It's not about that. Fi is mostly about personal values and authenticity - personal being the operative word. And so ENFP men sometimes can come off as ruder than they normally are, in order to assert their masculinity. Once they get a bit older and realize there is nothing pansy-ish about expressing healthy feelings and that the F in feeling doesn't always mean emo, then they relax into their fun-loving selves.

    I'm guessing that your posts (and even your user-title) may be a little more stern or harsh than you are in real life. The whole "I don't care" thing. I don't know. But there's nothing wrong with caring.
    You're right, I'm less harsh in real life than I appear on here, but I still don't think I'm very typical. I'm stoic, calm, sardonic and very pragmatic.

    In addition, you tend to define other people through how you define yourself, which is very Fi ("this person is like me, so he must be xyz" - rather than "based on the facts and empirical evidence, I deduce that this person is xyz"). I bet you are probably the kind of person who gives gifts that you think are nice and that you might want for yourself. As opposed to giving a gift that the recipient would actually request for him/herself.
    Well... yes and no. I do often see things from a personal perspective, but I'm fully conscious that my perspective isn't necessarily anyone else's, and adjust accordingly. On constructing arguments, I'm much more likely to actually go with logic rather than gut instinct, but I do use the latter sometimes; Fi Te, as opposed to just Fi. I logically deduced Ten was Ne Ti, a view that was then reinforced by his similarity to me, rather than the other way around.

    I see the imitation factor - the Ne gone wild, yes. But I think that's the writer's fault. They are still writing for the very popular Tennant. Which leads me to another point... when have you ever seen an ENTP of any sort that well loved by the public? People loved the hell out of Tennant. I, in fact, could not stand his mushy portrayal of the Doctor. He never said anything of substance - so many details always left out... "timey wimey" is NOT an answer to a specific question about time travel. it just isn't. That sort of non-response made me hate him. You would never find a Ti user who spoke that way.
    He does use technobabble painfully often. Humans don't understand most if it, so he adapted it accordingly. "Timey wimey ball, it goes ding when there's stuff" seems to be the most apt description for that by human standards.

    And it's not surprising that you would like Karen. She is very pretty, and very Fi.
    Yeah, I love ENFPs. So does my ENTJ best friend.

    Ten is Fi. I've never seen him use Ti in any real way. He often appeals to people's emotions, rather than to logic. Seriously, most of his battles were done by convincing people to be better people. Rose ate that shit up.
    Exactly. Textbook Fe empathetic mushiness, rather than Fi. You'd never catch me trying to make that kind of argument.

    I disagree with your conclusion. He definitely has more Ne than Ti, in every incarnation. His ability to think on his feet and make quick workarounds... I've never in my life seen an INTP like that. They often need to retreat for long periods to plan things out, even conversations. Ne doms are quick on their feet, as the Doctor always is.
    Ne isn't thinking on your feet, anyone smart enough can do that under stress. Ne is synthesis and detecting hidden patterns. He does display this in every single one of his incarnations, but outside of his Ne-Ti ones it's less prominent than his consistent technobabble explanations and deductive skills (Ti).
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  8. #58
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aderack View Post
    From the very start, David Tennant's Doctor was bleeding Fi all over the place. As soon as he wakes up he has that long, fairly out-of-character "who am I?" speech, where everyone has to stand around and watch while he decides on his own identity. Then he decides on the spot, for no particular reason, that he's a "no second chances" kind of guy. And then just to prove a point, because he happens to be annoyed in that moment, he takes down Harriet Jones and diverts the timeline, opening the door for Harold Saxon and all the Children of Earth nonsense.

    If he were showing Fe, he'd be listening to Harriet Jones and understanding where she came from, even if he didn't personally agree. He'd be aware of the circumstances around him when he woke, and instead of making everything about him, he would figure out the most appropriate course of action. Instead he makes a big self-conscious show of his own rudeness. Oh well, that's who he is now; he's a rude person. Got to be true to that. Rude and not ginger.

    With Tenth Doctor, it's always about him. It's about what he wants, what he feels is right, what he decides on a whim that other people must do. If he wants to take a while to deflower Queen Elizabeth instead of showing up for an appointment, that's what he does. Look at the arbitrary way he treats Jack, picking him up, dropping him off, telling him what to do, berating him for perfectly reasonable behavior that the Doctor just doesn't like at the moment. It's all justified, because as he keeps saying, he's the only authority that matters.

    Look at the way that he goes out, crying in the cafe at the thought of losing his identity then screaming at Wilf in the booth because he feels, despite having already sidestepped it once, that it's not fair that he has to regenerate, and then -- in the end -- crying again, alone, because he doesn't want to go. Although he knows perfectly well that he'll live on. He's just too attached to who he is at the moment.

    Hell, the description used over and over for his Doctor is "The Lonely God". Give me a break. How self-absorbed can you get?
    None of this comes even close to addressing my principal argument for Fe: His chief motivation is a strong belief in the value of others, human worth, and saving the galaxy. Fe, rather than Fi. Funny you brought up the Saxon arc, because it illustrates the contrast between Fe and Fi exceedingly well: Saxon (Fi) took every damn little thing personally; he was always on about MEMEME! in sharp contrast to the Doctor's messianic drive to save the world.
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  9. #59
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    He does use technobabble painfully often. Humans don't understand most if it, so he adapted it accordingly. "Timey wimey ball, it goes ding when there's stuff" seems to be the most apt description for that by human standards.
    Sorry, no. I can't really imagine Pertwee or Hartnell speaking like that. They were scientists.


    Exactly. Textbook Fe empathetic mushiness, rather than Fi. You'd never catch me trying to make that kind of argument.
    And there's my point again. Just because you wouldn't behave a certain way doesn't meant that it's not Fi. Not everything in Fi is defined by what you would do.

    From Lenore Thomson:

    As a Secondary Function, Fi typically leads EFPs to tune into the unmet needs and callings of others--as an avenue to making a sale, as a way to intuit what would entertain people, as a channel to political gain by demonstrating that you understand people's pain (e.g. Bill Clinton), as a way to chart a course through life based on a calling felt to be unique to them. Sometimes it leads them to sense a higher calling to answer to, a sense that their actions have cosmic meaning by virtue of how they aid or hinder life.
    So there that is.

    Ne isn't thinking on your feet, anyone smart enough can do that under stress. Ne is synthesis and detecting hidden patterns. He does display this in every single one of his incarnations, but outside of his Ne-Ti ones it's less prominent than his consistent technobabble explanations and deductive skills (Ti).
    Give me a break. I know plenty of smart and intelligent people that can't think on their feet. Ti doms, for example, need time and space to think. ENTPs are known for brainstorming quickly. That's just what we do.

    From Linda Berens:

    Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    None of this comes even close to addressing my principal argument for Fe: His chief motivation is a strong belief in the value of others, human worth, and saving the galaxy. Fe, rather than Fi. Funny you brought up the Saxon arc, because it illustrates the contrast between Fe and Fi exceedingly well: Saxon (Fi) took every damn little thing personally; he was always on about MEMEME! in sharp contrast to the Doctor's messianic drive to save the world.
    I beg to differ. The Master is ENTJ. The evil overlord. And guess what ENTJs use? That's right, Fi.

    From Lenore Thomson:
    As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)




    Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"

  10. #60
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    jeno I just wanted to say I miss you. I figured I'd post it here as this is the only thread you seem to post on in a regular fashion.

    I would like to say however that as my intj boyfriend and I was were watching movies and chatting about books, I discovered I am morally offended by time travel.

    It's like you and the sloths-there is just something wrong and creepy about messing with timelines for me. It is an Fi principal it appears.

    Thus I have nothing of value to contribute to this thread-except hugs! yeah I guess boy enfp can have a hug too, but nothing like your hug...

    *skips out of the creepy time travel thread*

    bye!

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