Harry Potter and MBTI

[miss fortune]

Aleksei, Curzon's using logic to show you can't deduce anything from your logic. He's following it trying to show you that your logic doesn't prove a thing. Not that you are necessarily wrong. Just that you need a more conclusive logical argument to firmly determine ESTP from the set of MBTI function/type basic rules.

Your argument is like this

If Harry Potter is healthy AND unselfish AND heroic.
1. He uses Fe because Fe is unselfish and heroic.

If Harry Potter is unhealthy AND selfish AND unheroic.
2. He uses Fi because it is selfish when unhealthy.

Conclusion: Since he is deemed healthy AND unselfish AND heroic, then he must use Fe.

The Logical Problem:
You don't address what healthy Fi looks like or what unhealthy Fe looks like and you apply negative properties (being selfish and unheroic) to unhealthy Fi, but don't address the negative properties of Fe. Since you left out all that information, your conclusion is half-baked and inconclusive because it does not even attempt to cover all or at least most of the possibilities. That's all. Nothing personal.

this brings up a good question... isn't Alexsei a Fi person?

 

[Aleksei]

Aleksei, Curzon's using logic to show you can't deduce anything from your logic. He's following it trying to show you that your logic doesn't prove a thing. Not that you are necessarily wrong. Just that you need a more conclusive logical argument to firmly determine ESTP from the set of MBTI function/type basic rules.

No, he actually thinks I argued harry is selfish and unhealthy.

The Logical Problem:
You don't address what healthy Fi looks like or what unhealthy Fe looks like and you apply negative properties (being selfish and unheroic) to unhealthy Fi, but don't address the negative properties of Fe. Since you left out all that information, your conclusion is half-baked and inconclusive because it does not even attempt to cover all or at least most of the possibilities. That's all. Nothing personal.

Good catch, I guess I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

He can't be Fi, not because he isn't egotistical, but rather because he shows little indication of being driven by internal values at all. There is no ideological bent to his pursuit of Voldemort, or any other monster he fights throughout the series, no selectiveness, no wondering about what the right thing is. All he displays is an impulse to save everyone he encounters from harm; in contrast to the Fi-using Ron and Hermione, who only follow him (semi-reluctantly) in his adventures because they are his friends. In sharp contrast, especially, to Hermione's own Fi-driven independent stab at heroism; her Elf liberation cause. She was completely stubborn about it, and refused to acknowledge the very evident fact that house-elves don't want to be freed, a fact that Harry picked up right away and so did Ron, but Ron in particular just didn't give a shit either way. He just wanted a tasty meal.

 

[Aleksei]

this brings up a good question... isn't Alexsei a Fi person?

Your point?

 

[Aleksei]

I would have written this before you did. but now my fingers hurt from typing.

If only you were actually capable of an argument that good.

 

[miss fortune]

just saying....

 

[Aleksei]

Yes, I'm Fi/Te. Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion.

 

[Poki]

I can see some STP, but I dont want to claim him as an STP bretheren and I dont know why, I just dont I guess I dont feel like it, my intuition says it cant be right, the visions in my head wont show a clear picture, and the voices are yelling at me.

 

[Glycerine]

because he's ISFP..... maybe that's why.
haha, just giving you a hard time. I could potentially buy ISTP. 20% ISTP vs. 80% ISFP.

 

[miss fortune]

I can see some STP, but I dont want to claim him as an STP bretheren and I dont know why, I just dont I guess I dont feel like it, my intuition says it cant be right, the visions in my head wont show a clear picture, and the voices are yelling at me.

I understand... my people sense tells me NO WAY IN HELL IS HE AN ESTP!!! :horor:

it doesn't FEEL right at all... and I'm used to reading people

 

[Cybin]

I don't think enough credit is being given to the differences in NeFi and SeFi. SeFi doesn't ruminate in feelings and theorize like NeFi does. Typically, they are more likely to feel them and act on them.

Also, just because Fi is based on internal standards does not mean they are incapable of empathizing with others and fighting for them. On the contrary, provided healthy development, Fi knows how people work internallywhich can give them great ability to empathize. This is how Fi bases their standards and, again barring immaturity, not on whatever they feel changing with every blow of the wind. Harry would have great experience with being wrongfully controlled. It does not seem unlikely he would have values against people being hurt or a force of evil gaining control, because he knows so well what that feels like.

Fe does not hold a monopoly on politeness. Unhealthy Fe is self serving and manipulative.

Yes, unhealthy Fi is ego reinforcing, but healthy Fi discerns between personal feelings and emotions and looks into universal human values.

I don't really have an opinion on what Harry is, I just don't think the case against ISFP is accurate.

It's all to the individual. No doubt some ISFPs would put themselves before others. I roomed with an ISFP and she was courteous as the expense of herself. I'm vey sure she was not ISFJ, not a hint of Si or Fe to be seen anywhere near her.

Also, Fe in the tertiary position is not like dominant Fe. It serves the first two functions, and generally (not always) makes the ETP good at speaking with people or, channeled to the ego, good at manipulating people. IFf you've ever heard an ETP with a silver tongue, that's terFe at work.

 

[Riva]

If only you were actually capable of an argument that good.

If only you were capable of realizing that you are not good at understanding simple but valid points.

But I admit, I am not the Solitary Walker.

 

[Aleksei]

I can understand simple points. The validity of yours is highly questionable.

 

[Riva]

^ Yet others agree. But you don't. Simple as that. It does not mean i am incapable of making valid points or arguments. You just seem to disagree no matter how much proof everone presents.

 

[Tamske]

...Neither of which is a Ti user, nor have you shown that anything he couldn't figure out required Ti.

I'd want to make a case for Dumbledore being a INT(something)

I: you don't know his plans/ideas/... until you are allowed to. He's secretive. The fact that he enjoys being among students counts towards E, but not enough in my opinion.
N: quite evident, I think. Always trying to accomplish more goals with a single course of action.
T: This is to me quite clear, but needs some arguments. He's big on love and all this... because he analyzes it! He studied love because that's a powerful magic. In Harry Potter's world, even the most Thinking T should study emotions because they do have an influence on reality - and not just through motivation for action, like in our world.
A Fi-driven Dumbledore wouldn't put Harry with the Dursleys. He wanted to make sure the blood-related magic worked... to protect Harry AND the whole wizarding world; at the cost of letting Harry suffer abuse. He rationally chose for the course of action which would make globally the least suffering.
Now just compare that to Harry's actions with respect to Ginny, like I explained in one of my previous posts.
Now I don't want to say Dumbledore is an unloving person. He did make strategic "mistakes" because of love - think him not telling everything to Harry in the first book. But there are more examples of him analyzing feelings than of him acting on feelings.
J or P: I'm not sure on that one. He does have meticulous, detailed plans, even for after his death. At the other hand, he's able to incorporate new elements/data quite quickly. Harry let Wormtail run? Voldemort took Harry's blood? Plan gets adapted immediately, though no-one but Dumbledore knows it. That's actually the biggest difference(*) with Voldemort, who carries out his plan as planned, with no room for luck and friends (which saves Harry) and when it fails, he retreats and makes a new plan.
Dumbledore's plans allow for details to get 'wrong'. So... I don't know. He seems to have the best of two sides here. Plans and flexibility.

(*) Save for the side they are on, of course.

 

[Aleksei]

Dumbledore is a clear INTJ (that is, a Te user rather than Ti).

 

[Aleksei]

^ Yet others agree. But you don't. Simple as that. It does not mean i am incapable of making valid points or arguments. You just seem to disagree no matter how much proof everone presents.

In Philosophy 101 they call this an Argumentum ad Populum fallacy.

 

[Orangey]

In Philosophy 101 they call this an Argumentum ad Populum fallacy.

That's not quite what he's doing. For it to qualify as Argumentum ad Populum he would need to have said something along the lines of "my argument is stronger than your argument because most of these other people agree with me."

What he's actually saying, though, is that the fact that some other people agree with him means (1) that (contrary to your claims) his argument is not totally out there and (2) that you're just going to disagree to disagree without looking at the content. It's a discrediting tactic, yes, but not an instance of the particular fallacy you brought up.

 

[mrcockburn]

:yim_rolling_on_the_:

HAHAHAHA are you guys SERIOUSLY seriously debating Harry Potter for forty pages to the point where you're throwing around latin debate fallacy phrases??

NYRDZ xTREEEM 5000.

*wipes tear*

Ok, ok, fine I'll get on topic and jump into the geek orgy...

Harry: ISTP
Hiney: INTJ
Ron: YUCK

As for houses.... I took those sorting test things when I was obsessed with HP as a kid... always got Slytherin, and by a pretty high margin. So, suffice it to say, ENTP = Slytherin?

Hey guys, I never said *I* wasn't a little dorkrat myself...

 

[Tamske]

As for houses.... I took those sorting test things when I was obsessed with HP as a kid... always got Slytherin, and by a pretty high margin. So, suffice it to say, ENTP = Slytherin?

ENTP Ravenclaw here... :hi:

 

[Aleksei]

:yim_rolling_on_the_:

HAHAHAHA are you guys SERIOUSLY seriously debating Harry Potter for forty pages to the point where you're throwing around latin debate fallacy phrases??

NYRDZ xTREEEM 5000.

*wipes tear*

Ok, ok, fine I'll get on topic and jump into the geek orgy...

Harry: ISTP
Hiney: INTJ
Ron: YUCK

As for houses.... I took those sorting test things when I was obsessed with HP as a kid... always got Slytherin, and by a pretty high margin. So, suffice it to say, ENTP = Slytherin?

Hey guys, I never said *I* wasn't a little dorkrat myself...

Slytherin is for sneaky, unprincipled fucks. That doesn't exclude ENTP, but ENTJ is a better fit.

As for your typings Hermione is a rule whore with no vision whatsoever -- Si-dom (ISTJ) rather than Ni-dom (INTJ). ISTP could fit for Harry, but I really do think he's an extrovert. You are 100% correct on Ron's type.