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  1. #301
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    no he doesn't want to save the world does he? He simply wants to get rid of Voldemort not because of his take over the world plan. He knows how dangerous, evil, cruel and hurtful Vol is. He has 1st hand experience.
    You just repeated what I said in a roundabout way. Voldemort is hurtful to others. Harry therefore wants to get rid of Voldemort so he won't hurt others anymore.

    Anyone could be self absorbed. Fi does not imply self absorbed selfishness.
    Fi implies reliance on internal values. Ti users could be self-absorbed as well, but in a more haughty intellectual manner. Fi users with egotistical values are just capricious and stubbornly want to get what they want all the time.

    I don't use my Fe the same way others do. Each one could use his/her functions the way they are inclined to. It is obvious that you are making relations to your Fi and Harry's Fi and seeing differences. So you simply believe that Harry couldn't be possibly an Fi user.
    No, not at all. I'm just pointing out that Fi isn't universally good and idealistic. My argument for Harry's lack of Fi is that he doesn't display a preferential value set. He's just uniformly sympathetic.

    It is ESTPs who are naturally heroic and brave. Not ISFP. I've seen over and pover and over again ESTP being pissed off and take actions when people around them whether they like them or not are treated unfairly.

    So your point actually proves that he is an ISFP. Not an ESTP. ESTP would not wait or does not have to wait till his parents get killed to take on a mission to bring down an asshole. An ISFP would.
    Way to fail at reading comprehension. My point here was that even an ESTP would not bask in the spotlight under such bleak circumstances; nothing to do with his heroic tendencies.

    Harry was pushed in to that destiny. This is why he became a hero.
    Outright falsehood. He had no fucking idea what his destiny was until like the end of the fifth book, but every single book revolved around how he would take it upon himself to rid the school of some menace or another. Of course they were all Voldemort-related, but he did not know that.

    Furthermore, an Fi user would be highly liable to run away from said destiny out of fear, since it spelled almost certain death. He accepted it was upon him to kill Voldemort, because somebody had to. Voldemort was hurting innocent people.
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  2. #302
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    One major reason Harry Potter wasn't the ideal hero (or admirable hero) was, he sucked at figuring things out. He needed Hermione or Dumbledore. He had shitty Ti.

    And being a person who has well developed Ti, depends on it and loves it made me itch at the fact that Harry was so bad at it and didn't use it. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    It's like when a character on TV or book can't figure out something which is soooooooooooo simple. I am sure you must have had this experience. but what I and others fail to realize is that although it must be easy for you, it must not be easy for others.
    Haha, you know I've thought this too. Couldn't stand how inept he was. I've always found other characters to be far more interesting.



  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Haha, you know I've thought this too. Couldn't stand how inept he was. I've always found other characters to be far more interesting.
    Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    I was soooooooooooo freaking annoyed by him. Arghhhhhhhh!

    And yes I especially liked Hermione's skills in that arena.

  4. #304
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    One major reason Harry Potter wasn't the ideal hero (or admirable hero) was, he sucked at figuring things out. He needed Hermione or Dumbledore.
    ...Neither of which is a Ti user, nor have you shown that anything he couldn't figure out required Ti.
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  5. #305
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    You just repeated what I said in a roundabout way. Voldemort is hurtful to others. Harry therefore wants to get rid of Voldemort so he won't hurt others anymore.
    Read it again till you get what I am trying to say. urghhhh! This is clearly miscommunication and my fingers are not as fast as I want them to be to be typing things over and over again.
    Fi implies reliance on internal values. Ti users could be self-absorbed as well, but in a more haughty intellectual manner. Fi users with egotistical values are just capricious and stubbornly want to get what they want all the time.
    I think we can all agree on the fact that Harry is not. So it goes to prove that this point you are making about egotistical Fi users cannot be applied to Harry.
    No, not at all. I'm just pointing out that Fi isn't universally good and idealistic. My argument for Harry's lack of Fi is that he doesn't have a preferential value set. He's just uniformly heroic.
    He is kind. Not uniformly heroic. He make personal sacrifices and feeling based sacrifices (I am not talking about his lie here) all the time. Now that is kindness and that ISFPs are.

    If he was uniformly heroic and was an ESTP he would have used his Fe and fame to run a hate campaign against Slytherine as a whole. Like Hitler did against the Jews (but lets not please argue on that here. I am only using an example).

    I know I would have. The way Slytherine treated him was quite nasty. If Harry was a ESTP atleast one or two people would have got a curse up his ass.

    And mind you, ESTPs are bloody aggressive when they have to be. Harry was never aggressive.

    Way to fail at reading comprehension. My point here was that even an ESTP would not bask in the spotlight under such bleak circumstances; nothing to do with his heroic tendencies.

    Now I get it.
    Outright falsehood. He had no fucking idea what his destiny was until like the end of the fifth book, but every single book revolved around how he would take it upon himself to rid the school of some menace or another. Of course they were all Voldemort-related, but he did not know that.
    Dude, that bugger killed his parents. I think you can understand his sentiment and his drive. He doe not need a destiny book to tell him, to take revenge from Voldemort. No one would need one.
    Furthermore, an Fi user would be highly liable to run away from said destiny out of fear, since it spelled almost certain death. He accepted it was upon him to kill Voldemort, because somebody had to. Voldemort was hurting innocent people.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    ...Neither of which is a Ti user, nor have you shown that anything he couldn't figure out required Ti.
    Read the fucking book. Believe me you'd love it. And there are more than enough points on this.

  7. #307
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    He is kind. Not uniformly heroic. He make personal sacrifices and feeling based sacrifices (I am not talking about his lie here) all the time.
    Which is... Fe! Fe is, as I have said over and over, defined by kindness. Fi is kind only when its values demand it.

    Now that is kindness and that ISFPs are.
    Not all ISFPs are kind - this is a very rosy picture of the type. Any type can be unhealthy, and unhealthy Fi-dominants would tend towards selfishness and neediness. Sacrificing the personal in particular is Fe-oriented, as Fi is a trait defined by personally-held values - while self-sacrifice could be one of these values in theory, Fe is far more likely as it is a part of the function's goddamn definition.

    If he was uniformly heroic and was an ESTP he would have used his Fe and fame to run a hate campaign against Slytherine as a whole. Like Hitler did against the Jews (but lets not please argue on that here. I am only using an example).
    Says who, you? Are all ESTPs exactly the same person? Is, say, Al Capone (ESTP) the same person as Madonna (ESTP)?

    Dude, that bugger killed his parents. I think you can understand his sentiment and his drive. He doe not need a destiny book to tell him, to take revenge from Voldemort. No one would need one.
    So, the Basilisk killed his parents too? No, he went after the Basilisk in Book 2 because he felt the need to save the school from it. He didn't know, he couldn't know that the Basilisk was controlled by the spirit of Voldemort. Therefore his quest was not one of personal vengeance. In book 1 he suspected the Sorcerer's Stone was meant to be delivered to Voldemort, but a look at his thought process shows that even there he wasn't driven by a desire for revenge either. He just felt the need to save everyone from a dangerous lunatic.

    You heard right. You don't seem to get that Fi isn't a heroic function, it's a values-oriented function. It is much rarer for an Fi-dominant to care enough about the world to save it at great risk to themselves, than it is for a strong Fe user.

    Read the fucking book. Believe me you'd love it. And there are more than enough points on this.
    You can make false inferrences of that sort all you like, but do show how they are Ti users. Hermione is very planned and meticulous, Te. Her feeling is also of an Fi bent, personal moralistic values-led crusades (such as her campaign for house elf rights). She's ISTJ. Dumbledore, likewise, is essentially a stereotypical INTJ. He expresses his Te in a rather gentle way, but this seems to be largely a part of his mask - he still focuses far more on the organization and planning (Te) of Harry's destiny than the logic of it (Ti)..
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  8. #308
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    and unhealthy Fi-dominants would tend towards selfishness and neediness. Sacrificing the personal in particular is Fe-oriented, as Fi is a trait defined by personally-held values - while self-sacrifice could be one of these values in theory, Fe is far more likely as it is a part of the function's goddamn definition.
    Is Harry Potter unhealthy?

    Is he selfish?

    WTF man?

    Have you even read the book or watched the film??????

    Says who, you? Are all ESTPs exactly the same person? Is, say, Al Capone (ESTP) the same person as Madonna (ESTP)?
    No and i never said they were. But both Al and Madonna know how to manipulate people. Madonna with popularity Al with fear and popularity.

    And what I was trying to say was if Harry was a ESTP, he would sure know how to be a bit pushy. Which he was not.
    So, the Basilisk killed his parents too?
    My gosh man... you would use this to prove a point?

    No basilisk (cool name) didn't kill his parents. And Harry didn't kill the basilisk because it did. He was simply defending himself.

    If he could have talked to the thingy he would have. But I have a feeling that the basilisk wasn't the talkative type.

    You heard right. You don't seem to get that Fi isn't a heroic function, it's a values-oriented function. It is much rarer for an Fi-dominant to care enough about the world to save it at great risk to themselves, than it is for a strong Fe user.
    Lolz... he wasn't saving the world as much as he was getting rid of a personal threat (people could disagree I understand) and getting revenge.

    Ahaaaaa...

    Why didn't I think of this before? And don't you see. Which would have a tendency to take revenge? Fe or Fi?

    I am proving a point on Fi. I am not implying that neither Fe users nor Fi users are revengeful. Just asking a question as to what has a bigger tendency.

  9. #309
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    I never said nor meant non-Fi users are emotionless, that would be completely and utterly wrong, apologies if it seemed that way. I said he uses more Fi in 3rd year DADA, not some other functions which were suggested, hence why his Fi dom teacher comes in handy.

    On Harry, not a lot of people will talk those who think ESTP round, and to those, I admire your conviction in your beliefs, and it may turn out to be correct, but IMHO, ISFP seems more fitting. Good luck sorting this out, if anyone needs book quotes for backing either side, I'd be happy to help if I can.

  10. #310
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    Is Harry Potter unhealthy?

    Is he selfish?

    WTF man?
    Reading comprehension fail. Again. II said nothing about Harry (whom all this fucking time I've been arguing is an Fe user). I was correcting the rosy picture you have of ISFPs, which in actuality corresponds more to ISFJs.

    No and i never said they were. But both Al and Madonna know how to manipulate people. Madonna with popularity Al with fear and popularity.

    And what I was trying to say was if Harry was a ESTP, he would sure know how to be a bit pushy. Which he was not.
    Why would he know how to be pushy? Who says all ESTPs are pushy? Moreover, ESTPs are not naturally a consistently manipulative type. Al Capone, incidentally, did not manipulate with popularity at all - only with fear. He manipulated with INFAMY, which is far from the same thing as popularity.


    My gosh man... you would use this to prove a point?

    No basilisk (cool name) didn't kill his parents. And Harry didn't kill the basilisk because it did. He was simply defending himself.
    He was defending others, the catalyst being when Ginny (who was not romantically involved with him at the time and he barely knew) was attacked. There are countless examples like this of disinterested heroics by him in the book, such as when he saved Hermione (which, note, was not his friend and had been insufferable to him and Ron earlier on) from the troll.

    Lolz... he wasn't saving the world as much as he was getting rid of a personal threat (people could disagree I understand) and getting revenge.
    Harry's own actions and statements prove otherwise. He was never interested in revenge, otherwise he would have killed Voldemort on the spot when he reached the Sorcerer's Stone. His only motivation is a desire to keep his friends from harm. He flies into a rage and gets pissed off primarily when Voldemort harms someone. Note that he didn't try to kill Voldemort on the spot in The Sorceror's Stone, which he would have if he were vengeance-driven. Rather, he only reaches towards that when Voldemort grows in strength and starts killing people off, starting with Cedric Diggory.
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