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  1. #81
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Gollum strikes me as an unhealthy INTP.
    His most dominant characteristic is not an MBTI type, it's that he's a junkie.

    EDIT: If I was gonna figure out his type, I'd go back and reread Tolkien's anecdote of the character back as Smeagol (and Tolkien's published notes on the same bit of narrative) and use those traits to make a determination. But he was a pretty slimy bastard even back then, TBH. He had a sense of entitlement and anti-social tendencies / narcissism even before the ring from what I can recall; he even throttled his own best friend without even flinching and abused the Ring almost immediately (where for the more good-hearted, like the hobbits, it took prolonged use/proximity to wear them down).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #82
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    His most dominant characteristic is not an MBTI type, it's that he's a junkie.
    Ring junkies are the worst, don't let them get behind you.

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Yeah he really didn't like those dirty invading haradrim in the books.
    Gandalf in the books shows a lot of INTJ traits like complex, long term planning and no hesitation in firmly rebuking other characters, such as Frodo, for making bad decisions. He leads a lot behind the scenes, and expresses a lot more confidence in his views and abilities than he does in the movies.

    In the movies though, we see an eccentric and substantially warmer character with a good sense of humour. He also expresses self-doubt to others (at least at first), which an NT would feel uncomfortable doing, and seems less concerned with an intricate large-scale plan than just mentoring a few key characters. Part of this could be due to the movie process - you can only fit so much content into a movie - but I get too much Fe from McKellen's acting to call movie Gandalf an INTJ.

    I thought movie Gandalf was awesome btw. But he's clearly not a Thinking type.

  4. #84
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
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    Frodo: absolutely an INFP
    Sam: ISFJ
    Aragorn: a very charismatic and mature ISTJ
    Gandalf: INTJ
    Legolas: ISTP
    Arwen: seems much more like an INFP to me, very much. I disagree with all the folks that categorized her as ENFP

    And among a group of that many types, the Ring can only entrusted with an INFP - the underdog that has this capacity for quiet sufferings that could be unbearable to other types.
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  5. #85
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Lord of the rings is all about a lame fantasy of an old world... Star Wars actually depicts a future which in many ways is perhaps immanent within human realization (albeit without the "wars"). Still, there could be wars as far as general challenges go, the different forces of our existence. But I don't see us annihilating each other and unjustly causing destruction.
    Star Wars depicts a fictional past, a cinematic legend. It is Star Trek that shows us the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Gandalf in the books shows a lot of INTJ traits like complex, long term planning and no hesitation in firmly rebuking other characters, such as Frodo, for making bad decisions. He leads a lot behind the scenes, and expresses a lot more confidence in his views and abilities than he does in the movies.
    The whole trilogy seems devoid of complex, long-term planning - one reason why I find it ultimately unsatisfying, much as I want to like it and do appreciate the detailed setting.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The whole trilogy seems devoid of complex, long-term planning - one reason why I find it ultimately unsatisfying, much as I want to like it and do appreciate the detailed setting.
    He is managing many different scenarios at once in the Hobbit and taking a calculated risk on all of them, if you read the Tolkien's Appendices to LOTR. The movies are quite different to the books.

  7. #87
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    Frodo: INFP, agreed upon by most.
    Sam: ISFJ
    Aragorn: ISTP with developed Fe,
    Gandalf: INTJ, seems to use thinking over feeling, and is a long term planner(J)
    Arwen: INFJ seems most likely
    Legolas: ISFP, possibly ISTP
    Gimli: ESFJ?
    Boromir: ESTJ
    Gollum: hard to say his true type because he is completely tortured and destroyed by the ring.
    Pippin: ESFP, very impulsive
    Merry: ESTP, Could b ESFP.
    King Theoden: ENTJ
    Eomer: ENTP or ESTP
    Eyown: ISTJ
    Faramir: ISFP?
    Bilbo: ENFP
    Saruman: ENTJ, similar to gandalf in persoanlity, just chose the path of evil.
    Sauron: impossible to type

  8. #88
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The whole trilogy seems devoid of complex, long-term planning - one reason why I find it ultimately unsatisfying, much as I want to like it and do appreciate the detailed setting.
    Yeah it's more that they have a general goal or idea of a plan, than something set out in stages or set structure. The plan in LOTR is like one of my sloppy ideas of a plan, ie: fire from mountain kills ring, defeats Sauron...erm....frees people? It's a moral and ethical plan not a structural one.

    I think an INTJ would be more likely to set up a plan not just in how to defeat Sauron and destroy the ring but also what structures would need to be set up in the aftermath. Now it could be said that Gandalf planned to move Aragorn onto the throne as part of that structure, but it looks more like he went from place to place trying convince others to action on his own individual merit to argue, debate and inspire to action.

    From The Hobbit:

    "Good morning!" Said Bilbo and he meant it.

    Gandalf's reply: "What do you mean?" "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"

    To me that smacks more of Ti than Te. Others might disagree but I think that Te is more inclined to question the purpose or usefulness of something rather than it's structure. A simple reply of good morning might be adhered to simply because it gets a superficial pleasantry out the way, or even ignoring it completely, as opposed to wasting time discussing it's structural merit. But that's perhaps a bit of a general statement.

    I think in the later LOTR books Gandalf does come across more Je, but I think it's him incorporating an Fe element into his style of motivating others. If INTP, for example, nothing is stopping him engaging Fe cogitations where appropriate, it's just that he doesn't observe an Fe mindset all the time and being forced to would cause stress and conflict.

    Saruman is more of an NTJ counterpart in the books, although even I'm getting tired of the NTJ villain trope, (however this is with respect to the fact most writers probably don't intend that and typology is always open to intepretation). On the other hand, perhaps NTJ's can take pride in the fact they make some of the best villains.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #89
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I think an INTJ would be more likely to set up a plan not just in how to defeat Sauron and destroy the ring but also what structures would need to be set up in the aftermath. Now it could be said that Gandalf planned to move Aragorn onto the throne as part of that structure, but it looks more like he went from place to place trying convince others to action on his own individual merit to argue, debate and inspire to action.
    Sounds like you're quoting right from the books there . Here's one description:

    Though the Valar intervened only rarely in Middle-earth, they sent the wizards as emissaries from Valinor because they had not forsaken the faithful Men and Elves of Middle-earth. In imposing the prohibition against using force to compel the Children of Eru, the Valar sought with the wizards to avoid repeating an ancient error. They had tried direct intervention in the destiny of the Elves in the Years of the Trees by leading the Eldar into the West, but this resulted in many bloody wars and confrontations. In the struggle against the Dark Lord, they hoped instead to help Men achieve their own destiny. Thus Gandalf and the other wizards were meant to use their great wisdom to persuade Men to courses of action which would achieve Men's own goals, rather than trying to dominate them, hence their power was ultimately restricted. Saruman failed in this when he tried to set himself up as a commander in opposition to Sauron, but Gandalf remained faithful to his charge.
    Bold added. But they were forbidden to match power with power; they were supposed to inspire the peoples to fight for themselves.

    This is also why Cirdan gave Gandalf the elven ring Narya, the ring of fire:

    Gil-galad entrusted Narya to his lieutenant Círdan, Lord of the Havens of Mithlond, who kept it after Gil-galad's death. In the Third Age Círdan, knowing Gandalf's true nature and duty, gave him the ring to aid him in his labours.

    "Take this ring, master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." - Círdan the Shipwright
    It's unclear to me how much of Gandalf's choices thus were driven by personality versus actual assigned mission... although we must note that Saruman was unable to restrain his Directive desires, whereas Gandalf was more liable to be Informative in his approach and didn't seen to struggle as much over the need to control situations -- instead he would enter them and catalyze them, but ultimately allow the participants to determine their own fate even if he had preferences of his own. He naturally allowed more freedom than his counterpart Saurman.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Yeah it's more that they have a general goal or idea of a plan, than something set out in stages or set structure. The plan in LOTR is like one of my sloppy ideas of a plan, ie: fire from mountain kills ring, defeats Sauron...erm....frees people? It's a moral and ethical plan not a structural one.

    I think an INTJ would be more likely to set up a plan not just in how to defeat Sauron and destroy the ring but also what structures would need to be set up in the aftermath. Now it could be said that Gandalf planned to move Aragorn onto the throne as part of that structure, but it looks more like he went from place to place trying convince others to action on his own individual merit to argue, debate and inspire to action.

    From The Hobbit:

    "Good morning!" Said Bilbo and he meant it.

    Gandalf's reply: "What do you mean?" "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"

    To me that smacks more of Ti than Te. Others might disagree but I think that Te is more inclined to question the purpose or usefulness of something rather than it's structure. A simple reply of good morning might be adhered to simply because it gets a superficial pleasantry out the way, or even ignoring it completely, as opposed to wasting time discussing it's structural merit. But that's perhaps a bit of a general statement.

    I think in the later LOTR books Gandalf does come across more Je, but I think it's him incorporating an Fe element into his style of motivating others. If INTP, for example, nothing is stopping him engaging Fe cogitations where appropriate, it's just that he doesn't observe an Fe mindset all the time and being forced to would cause stress and conflict.

    Saruman is more of an NTJ counterpart in the books, although even I'm getting tired of the NTJ villain trope, (however this is with respect to the fact most writers probably don't intend that and typology is always open to intepretation). On the other hand, perhaps NTJ's can take pride in the fact they make some of the best villains.
    I think the potential to do great evil on a macro level is much greater due to the nature of those types' personalities. However the inverse is also true (eg Theoden, an example of a heroic ENTJ). A lot of it depends on the environment the individual and their beliefs are exposed to. People who have read Tolkien's books will be aware that nether Saruman nor Sauron started off as evil, but was corrupted due to their desires to create order and structure, and control aspects of the world to make their visions a reality. Very NTJ-ish.

    Gandalf is good at making quick decisions and does not over-think them. I agree that he has Fe and Ti, but I don't see him as a Ti dom. I see him as an INFJ with well developed tertiary.

    Considering how old he is, why is this so hard to believe?

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