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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    I just realized today that Dr. Phil is probably an S instead of an N. He mostly just remembers a bunch of facts and procedures and applies them. It's hard to pick up on if he's E or I based on his show. I mean, if an introvert has a show like that, he's gonna have to talk, and you don't see how he interacts with people in regular situations.
    My choices were basically xNTJ or ESTJ... and yes, he "scans" as more concrete in his manner and priorities.

    Bummer about Steve Irwin (ESFP)
    He would have been an excellent choice for this list.

    --

    Billy Graham, *not* internationally famous???
    I guess this is 2007, though. Thirty or forty years ago, everyone would have heard of him.

    Meanwhile, I am reviewing more material on Bill Clinton, in order to make sure I am on the right track, before I post anything.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    I just realized today that Dr. Phil is probably an S instead of an N. He mostly just remembers a bunch of facts and procedures and applies them. It's hard to pick up on if he's E or I based on his show. I mean, if an introvert has a show like that, he's gonna have to talk, and you don't see how he interacts with people in regular situations.
    But does an introvert have a show like that?

  3. #13
    Senior Member outmywindow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    I just realized today that Dr. Phil is probably an S instead of an N. He mostly just remembers a bunch of facts and procedures and applies them. It's hard to pick up on if he's E or I based on his show. I mean, if an introvert has a show like that, he's gonna have to talk, and you don't see how he interacts with people in regular situations.
    The man has to be an E. He's a regular showman, always peddling his latest book and selling his goofy nutrition bars in the middle of his show. He does it so often and so blatantly that it's actually become a running gag in my house... I mean, sure, an I can sell something, but I doubt they'd be so, well, extroverted about it. He's something of a used car salesman who sells advice instead of cars.
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  4. #14
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Billy Graham, *not* internationally famous???
    I guess this is 2007, though. Thirty or forty years ago, everyone would have heard of him.
    At any rate, I know nothing about his personality, and it's my list, so there.

    Meanwhile, I am reviewing more material on Bill Clinton, in order to make sure I am on the right track, before I post anything.
    Cool. I have to admit I haven't truly considered that he could be S. (I never took note of Keirsey's S typing, figuring that he was too invested in his claim that NFs can't/won't be president to be objective.) I intend to get ahold of his bio - though I wonder whether we should be taking it for granted that he wrote all of it himself?

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    At any rate, I know nothing about his personality, and it's my list, so there.
    add'l info: In case you haven't actually heard of him before, he's easily the greatest "Christian evangelist" of the last half century and has done rallies all around the world. He's very old now, however, and I think has Parkinson's, so his son took over his ministry 5+ years ago

    Cool. I have to admit I haven't truly considered that he could be S. (I never took note of Keirsey's S typing, figuring that he was too invested in his claim that NFs can't/won't be president to be objective.) I intend to get ahold of his bio - though I wonder whether we should be taking it for granted that he wrote all of it himself?
    I don't know. I'm sure he had an editor / ghostwriter smooth it out for him. (You'd be surprised at how many of these books are actually "written" by someone else... which means he just provided lots of interview info or did a first draft dump, which someone else used as raw material to build the book.)

    I'll admit up front that Bill is not an open-and-shut case, so obviously even with an opinion I'm still not completely sure. (I'd love to meet him for ten minutes and get a vibe from him.) And it doesn't help that xSFP types often are mistaken by themselves and others for N's. Berens has a page about that somewhere, describing the problem and how it can be resolved.

    I'll say I have a hard time believing an ENFP could and would have scrapped with so many S's so directly and so hard and not been crushed/scarred by it. (Remember my internal database? The male ENFPs I've known avoid emotional conflict whenever possible because it just erodes them very quickly, although they'll pursue and promote broad visions via their Ne, founded on their Fi values.) An SP rises to that sort of challenge, however, and Clinton always was a master gameplayer, in the SP mindset. He's never been afraid of a fight.

    [Drat, I'm such a pushover. Here I said I didn't want to talk about him... and there I go again. You found my weakness.]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't know. I'm sure he had an editor / ghostwriter smooth it out for him. (You'd be surprised at how many of these books are actually "written" by someone else... which means he just provided lots of interview info or did a first draft dump, which someone else used as raw material to build the book.)
    My point exactly. I'm not sure I trust his bio as an accurate source of how he presents his thoughts in writing.

    I'll admit up front that Bill is not an open-and-shut case, so obviously even with an opinion I'm still not completely sure. (I'd love to meet him for ten minutes and get a vibe from him.)
    In the FOX interview I totally get an N vibe from him ("I will answer all of your questions, but first I'd like to talk about the context in which [you're asking me why I didn't do more to catch Bin Laden]..."). Also, Hillary is N, isn't she? Would she feel the following way about an S?

    All I know is that no one understands me better and no one can make me laugh the way Bill does. Even after all these years, he is still the most interesting, energizing and fully alive person I have ever met. Bill Clinton and I started a conversation in the spring of 1971, and more than thirty years later we're still talking.
    Full disclosure: I'm an INTJ female in a long-term relationship with an ENFP. I do recognize myself in Hillary, and her description of Bill could be my description of my SO - just substitute "five" for thirty.

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    For pedagogical/illustratory purposes, I'd like to compile a list of 16 men and 16 women of each MB type, all of whom fulfill the following conditions:

    1. They must still be alive
    2. They must be internationally famous (for good things)
    3. They must have personalities that are well-known or easily researchable
    4. Uncertainty about their type must be minimal.

    Regarding Sensers, I've thus far got 2/16 - Christina Aguilera (ISFP) and Simon Cowell (ISTP). Arguments available upon request. Want to help me get the remaining 14/16?

    Female ESFP candidates:
    Female ESTP candidates: Madonna?
    Female ISTP candidates:
    Female ESFJ candidates: Tyra Banks?
    Female ISFJ candidates:
    Female ESTJ candidates: Ivanka Trump (I'm positive she's ESTJ, I'd just prefer someone who's also famous outside the US)
    Female ISTJ candidates:

    Male ESFP candidates:
    Male ISFP candidates: Eminem?
    Male ESTP candidates:
    Male ESFJ candidates:
    Male ISFJ candidates:
    Male ESTJ candidates:
    Male ISTJ candidates: Bruce Willis - or is he ISFJ?

    (Incidentally, I am perfectly capable of googling famous xSxx lists; what I want is to hear who you personally believe to be xSxx, preferably accompanied by arguments - though intuition will do if you point out someone I'm not already considering. )

    Why are we concerned with the famous sensors. I was talking about meritorious NTs and NFs, those who we can admire for having a great heart or a great head, but can we say the same for any of these S people?

    Many of them may be well known, but far from meritorious as I have used that word.

  8. #18
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll say I have a hard time believing an ENFP could and would have scrapped with so many S's so directly and so hard and not been crushed/scarred by it. (Remember my internal database? The male ENFPs I've known avoid emotional conflict whenever possible because it just erodes them very quickly, although they'll pursue and promote broad visions via their Ne, founded on their Fi values.) An SP rises to that sort of challenge, however, and Clinton always was a master gameplayer, in the SP mindset. He's never been afraid of a fight.
    I admit there is sense to this. Do you think his wicked IQ could play a role here though?

    Edit: Of course, his IQ could work both ways: It could fool us into thinking his preference is N when it is in fact S - and if his preference is N, a superhuman IQ could make him that much more eager to share his vision since he'll feel more certain in his ability to contribute - like an ENFP parent who doesn't mind disciplining a child.

    [Drat, I'm such a pushover. Here I said I didn't want to talk about him... and there I go again. You found my weakness.]


    And on that note, I'm off to bed - goodnight.
    Last edited by Economica; 04-25-2007 at 04:32 AM.

  9. #19
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    I've added Dr. Phil to the list as a candidate for the ESTJ slot after reminding myself of what he's like - including watching this clip which seems very much like an ESTJ coming up short to me.

    If anyone who knows a male ESTJ well would care to comment, I'd appreciate it.

    Edit: I've asked several INTPc members with an ESTJ (step)father to comment. Yes, that's how much I care about assembling this list.
    Last edited by Economica; 04-25-2007 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #20
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    This is "I'mthereforme"...my father's an ESTJ.

    I'm not sure about Dr. Phil...I thought he was ENTJ but now that it's mentioned, he does seem to base many of his judgements on clues people gave him from what was said and the way things were acted, and uses them as proof that one should react in a certain way. My father would also react to something he hears, and base his thoughts and ideas on that, rather than thinking what a certain sentence may imply other than what it directly says, and takes the meaning literally. He likes to deal with facts and if there isn't a concrete reason to do something, or go somewhere, he won't know why someone would want to do it.

    When I was younger, if my siblings and I misbehaved (especially in public) his reaction would be to get mad at us, and his goal would be to make us behave (without analyzing the best way, or think about our point of view so that he knows the best way to deal), while my mother (INTJ) would understand the untangible reason that we might behave in a certain way....on the other hand, Dr. Phil seems to grasp what he's being told and see the pattern going on in a relationship, and the principle problem behind it(at least that's what I think...he may just be basing those things on clues given in the stories without too much thinking ahead, I haven't watched enough). It's difficult for my father, sometimes, to see why something would bother someone, if it didn't bother him....I'm not sure if this is an S/N thing or not, and I don't know if it applies, but I just thought I'd mention it.

    I don't know much about Dr. Phil, and don't know if this is helpful, but is he easily able to understand why someone would act in a certain way and put himself in their shoes, or is his immediate impulse/reaction to firmly state his opinion based on facts and not understand different points of views (and is that an S/N thing, or a T/F thing? Sorry, I need to be better educated on MBTI to be able to give a better answer).

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