Russia or America for Finland?

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by kuranes

I think Finland will want to be finished with both of them.

I would think so. Finland and Russia don't have the nicest history, and the United States is rightfully isolated at the moment. Why not the old Thomas Jefferson attitude: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none?"

[Victor]

Originally Posted by pure_mercury

...."peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none?"

Except, of course, Oz.

[sade]

The history is pretty undeniable and politics have a long memory. I'd say america currently, the Russa-Georgia war gave a good scare even though the politicians claim it hasn't affected us. Before that there'd been more positive opinion towards Russia developing.. But honestly Russia is right there and a huge border with it. Not cool. It tends to be playing with fire at times. Last time I checked Russia gave Finland a note about bad treatment of Russian minority in the country and commented really negatively on the ex-president receiving a Nobel peace prize. Don't you just love it when power politics start rolling.. But I'm biased because of my own opinion.The country has been pretty comitted in EUs own military things, hoping that would provide some security.

Honestly, right now the politics are going toward joining Nato, the neutrality is starting to change.

But as I said, I'm biased. Carry on.

[Falcarius]

Originally Posted by Victor

During WW II Finland persuaded the Germans to withdraw without fighting...

That is not true.

The Soviet Union invaded and started the Winter War with Finland, a year or so later they agreed peace treaty where Finland agreed to give up some land to the Soviet Union. Finland still pissed at the Soviet Union joined the Nazi's and Italy in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union. The UK got annoyed so it declared war on Finland. Eventually, Finland decided to swap sides again, when they found out the Axis were losing, causing the Lapland War with the Nazi's. The Nazi's like totally burnt Rovaniemi down and tried to destroy the rest of Lapland as they retreated. Hitler must have really hated old Saint Nic.

[lowtech redneck]

Originally Posted by Falcarius

It is best to not pick either the US or Russia until it knows who is going to win, one has to considers the last time Finland was forced to pick between two countries it decided to let Nazi's take up position in Joulupukki's back garden. Therefore, it spend the next fifty years being dominated as a punishment. Do a Norway and don't pick anyone.

uh, Norway is a NATO member...

Given Russia's history and recent actions (not just in Georgia) regarding border countries, as well as the dynamics behind the "democratic peace" phenomenom, Finland would probably be wise to join NATO if public opinion is favorable-they should also insist on a more direct mutual defense pact with the United States, just like Poland.

As for who is going to "win"...Russian power is going to decline precipitously in the medium term due to their terrible demographic situation. I wouldn't make any long-term bets on their maintaining their current level of resurgent power.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Falcarius

That is not true.

The Soviet Union invaded and started the Winter War with Finland, a year or so later they agreed peace treaty where Finland agreed to give up some land to the Soviet Union. Finland still pissed at the Soviet Union joined the Nazi's and Italy in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union. The UK got annoyed so it declared war on Finland. Eventually, Finland decided to swap sides again, when they found out the Axis were losing, causing the Lapland War with the Nazi's. The Nazi's like totally burnt Rovaniemi down and tried to destroy the rest of Lapland as they retreated. Hitler must have really hated old Saint Nic.

Sure, and it was a negotiated retreat. In their negotiations, the Fins spoke of the Germans as brothers. This was the height of diplomacy.

And this resulted in the Germans retreating without being defeated.

To subdue the enemy without fighting is not only the height of diplomacy but the height of warcraft.

[Oleander]

When Chechnya fought against Russian overlordship we supported it and condemned the Russians for grabbing it back. When Kosovo fought against Serbian overlordship we backed Kosovo. When Abkhazia fought against Georgian overlordship and Russia supported it we backed Georgia. The only consistancy is the ancient one that whoever uses a version of the Greek alphabet and Greek Church is wrong.

[whatever]

To be completely unalligned is a fantasy, but I think that more options than the US or Russia will exist more prominently in the near future

[lowtech redneck]

Originally Posted by Oleander

When Chechnya fought against Russian overlordship we supported it and condemned the Russians for grabbing it back. When Kosovo fought against Serbian overlordship we backed Kosovo. When Abkhazia fought against Georgian overlordship and Russia supported it we backed Georgia. The only consistancy is the ancient one that whoever uses a version of the Greek alphabet and Greek Church is wrong.

Your comparison is faulty; forgetting for a moment the qualitative differences between Georgian and Russian or Serbian internal political dynamics (and their implications toward minority rights), the Abkhazians COMPRISED 20% OF ABKHAZIA BEFORE THEY ETHNICALLY CLEANSED A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION (with significant Russian help)! Incidentally, the Georgians, Russians, and Abkhazians are all Orthodox Christians.

In any event, purported Western hypocrisy is irrelevant as far as the security interests of Finland are concerned.

[wildcat]

Originally Posted by Victor

Except, of course, Oz.

Thank you, Victor.
You do not waste words to point out the obvious.

Economy is not easy.
Unless you have a match in courage and intelligence.