Greed Based Systems and Alternatives

[Modern Nomad]

i kinda wanted an apocalypse. It would be kinda fun riding a horse to your friend's pad, instead of driving a car.

[Metamorphosis]

Originally Posted by nolla

The big companies can easily dominate any country's economy. The money goes over to America or Europe. They pay as few dimes as possible for their cheap materials and manufacturers to make their prices lower for you and me.

Those countries receiving small amounts of money is better than the zero money they would be receiving without capitalism.

[nolla]

Originally Posted by kuranes

I think wanting to own things is a fairly primal need, and it is somewhat indulged by Capitalism. ( By that I mean some people within the capitalist system enjoy more feeling of "control" than others, and not that Communism would give you more of a feeling of ownership. )

It is when we get into the implications that people are owned ( in all but name ) or can be owned period that we run into trouble, of course.

In the "Conservative Feminism" thread it was mentioned by Peguy that the nuclear family as a primal unit ( fulfilling those needs ) has been around in its current form for so long that history has judged it the best way for individuals to proceed, and continue life etc. I don't think anyone questions that this approach also fits a primal demand. When discussing alternatives in that thread, it seemed the idea was that other perspectives were doomed by not being so tried and true, or primally basic.

So, if we would like to consider alternatives to capitalism or democracy, we should find a human emotion that is about power but not about greed. Would "respect" work? How would a respect based system be like?

[nolla]

Originally Posted by Metamorphosis

Those countries receiving small amounts of money is better than the zero money they would be receiving without capitalism.

So, are you ready to say that their economy will eventually get on the level of the western economies?

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by nolla

The big companies can easily dominate any poor country's economy. The money goes over to America or Europe. They pay as few dimes as possible for their cheap materials and manufacturers to make their prices lower for you and me.

But how would make a country poorer, if they didn't even have those dimes from the big companies to begin with? You can't make someone poorer by buying goods and labor from them.

[Risen]

Jeez man. There isn't any system that will trump basic human nature or the level of consciousness of the people under it. In order for you to see anything that works better than the various systems we already have, there has to be a change in the consciousness of the people under it. Sorry if I sound spiritual here (though I am), but that's a fact. The people have to change quite dramatically before the collective societies and economic structures they create can ever change. Gotta fix the foundation of the house (the people) before you can work on the building a new one (a financial/governing system). You can go around in circles discussing it until the end of time, but not a darn thing will change in the end until that happens.

[Metamorphosis]

Originally Posted by nolla

So, are you ready to say that their economy will eventually get on the level of the western economies?

It's a possibility. And there are many non-western countries that are doing great. It helps to have natural resources, though.

[kuranes]

Originally Posted by nolla

So, if we would like to consider alternatives to capitalism or democracy, we should find a human emotion that is about power but not about greed. Would "respect" work? How would a respect based system be like?

Well, I don't think this technically fulfills all the attributes of a respect oriented system, but it seems to be the closest thing operating in today's world. Yes, people use money and own things, but there is a place for respect. Here is a link to another post here, which apparently most people missed, or it was the thread killer.

Business Owners, Leaders and Entrepreneurs are not all Evil

[IlyaK1986]

Communism appeals to human virtue. Everyone is equal, give according to your abilities and you will be given to according to your needs. Everyone contributes and lives a happy lifestyle.

Except for the dumb schmuck that gets things anyway but has no ability. Which makes the smart guy who contributes so much wonder why he's working so hard. He could just be lazy also.

The result is that nobody does anything and expects rewards for more than they do.

Capitalism isn't a system for the greedy. It's a system in which you get out what you put in. Be talented, work hard, be creative, persevere, and you'll go far. Despair and drop out, and you're a nobody.

And it works damn fine.

Democracy has its flaws in that most people aren't too bright but have as much voting power as a genius. So far, it's worked pretty nicely, when coupled with limited terms. Except for Bush. He's the flaw.

[nolla]

Originally Posted by pure_mercury

But how would make a country poorer, if they didn't even have those dimes from the big companies to begin with? You can't make someone poorer by buying goods and labor from them.

I said KEEPING the countries poor. Ok, say we have a tiny country that has some U.S. owned factory. Their economy is dependent of it. The factory pays its workers the average pay of the country. The tiny country has a functional government that cant do anything about that factory not giving more money, because it would destroy their economy if the factory shipped to the next cheap country. This doesn't make the country stay poor directly, but, those people working in the factory could be working in small businesses that would benefit the country more by strengthening their private sector.

Originally Posted by Risen

The people have to change quite dramatically before the collective societies and economic structures they create can ever change. Gotta fix the foundation of the house (the people) before you can work on the building a new one (a financial/governing system). You can go around in circles discussing it until the end of time, but not a darn thing will change in the end until that happens.

So, you say that I am the first one of a new level thinking? I like the sound of that.

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

Communism appeals to human virtue. Everyone is equal, give according to your abilities and you will be given to according to your needs. Everyone contributes and lives a happy lifestyle.

Except for the dumb schmuck that gets things anyway but has no ability. Which makes the smart guy who contributes so much wonder why he's working so hard. He could just be lazy also.

I am not for communism, for the tenth time!

You know, people, I was hoping to see visions to where the system could be led to, not this status quo reinforcing. I bet most of you guys could easily vision some sci-fi scenarios reaching thousands years from now, yet you are unable to vision some other ways for the system? You do see that capitalism has many stages behind it? Do you really think that this is it? The final and the best form? We are in an interesting time in history, the capitalism is changing and I would like to get your view on how it might become in the next fifty, hundred or thousand years.