10/7 Obama vs. McCain debate thread.

[kuranes]

Originally Posted by Jack Flak

kuranes: Good intentions and a nickel will get you a "Fuck You" from a homeless guy.

True. Still, our intentions are important. I indicated an example of how Obama helped himself by being honest in an answer. Yet I'm sure we could both think of examples of how honesty could screw you in some situations and help you in others. What of it ?

One thing that may have prompted you to say that, would be making a pithy joke about "what is". I think it was Lenny Bruce ( not sure ) that said " 'What should be' is a dirty lie. 'What is' is all that counts." Probably the same sentiment, eh ?

I noticed that in ptgatsby's reply to my comments in the "ladies" thread, that he was telling me about "here's how the game works" in response to my posts, although acknowledging that it often didn't make sense.

I think that sometimes as we post away here in this virtual "meeting place" that we are asking for nuts and bolts advice on why or how to do something specific, etc., but other times we are asking our "fellow travelers" about what "should be". Why not indulge in that side now and then ? If we can speculate on alternatives to greed based systems etc. then why can't we do that ?

Sometimes while doing that we may even come up with new approaches or answers for others and ourselves. During a brainstorming session the first step is to put ideas on the table that might be apropos. The time to eliminate them ( for the time being, until they are resurrected again from the archive of ideas ) is not then, but later; and pursuant to a specific goal versus simply on a whim or personal touchstone.

Or we could try to get cosmic and look at this like an allegory or something. What would the bum symbolize ? The coffee ? Me ? The sidewalk ? etc.

[Jack Flak]

It was one of those literal/figurative things, you know. Because it is literally true, and also a microcosm for however big picture you want to get.

[kuranes]

Originally Posted by Jack Flak

It was one of those literal/figurative things, you know. Because it is literally true, and also a microcosm for however big picture you want to get.

Yes, it can grow into the macrocosm, but still be scaled with everything else there; continuing to sit in its corner, hoping for that generous and tipsy rich woman to come along; and who's to say which is the bigger dreamer ? Me down here, where it's not even cosmic, or the God of drunks up there ? ( He tends to look favorably on me anyway, from past associations. )

[Jack Flak]

I can't get past the comparisons of societies which were intended to be wrapped around the proletariat ending up shit for especially the proletariat, and everyone but the super-elite. The societies built from capitalism provide more for the worst off.

[kuranes]

Originally Posted by Jack Flak

I can't get past the comparisons of societies which were intended to be wrapped around the proletariat ending up shit for especially the proletariat, and everyone but the super-elite. The societies built from capitalism provide more for the worst off.

I don't remember either of them drawing our attention to these historical experiments, but I tend to identify more with your previous statement; and I bet the homeless guy wouldn't give you pocket lint for either one of them ( from a pure "design translating into 'substance for him' " POV ) if there's no respect involved. For an example of a system where there is respect involved, see the "greed based systems" thread where I posted a link. It's not communism, but the union leaders ( although suspicious at first ) eventually endorsed it wholeheartedly, and then these union guys ( I forget ) may have even become irrelevant later.

[Jack Flak]

Yeah, I extrapolated a little bit. SUE ME!

[Jeffster]

What annoys me is that none of the Republican or Democrat candidates anymore ever challenge the notion that the federal government is supposed to solve all their problems for them and change their diapers and give them a bottle. I mean, they just accept it as a given, now. I think Bob Dole was the last one to actually put forth the incredible notion that he wasn't running for Santa Claus, and of course he got pinned as a mean old rich man for suggesting such a thing.

[Jack Flak]

F'n A, Jeffster.

[kuranes]

Originally Posted by Jeffster

What annoys me is that none of the Republican or Democrat candidates anymore ever challenge the notion that the federal government is supposed to solve all their problems for them and change their diapers and give them a bottle. I mean, they just accept it as a given, now. I think Bob Dole was the last one to actually put forth the incredible notion that he wasn't running for Santa Claus, and of course he got pinned as a mean old rich man for suggesting such a thing.

Well not everybody needs the handout that Jack's homeless character does. You'll have to ask Jack about what that guy's circumstances are. He may have come by his sad state honestly, or ....not. Only Jack knows.

Interesting that "corporate welfare" was also brought up in the debates, though, and not responded to.

[Jack Flak]

Corporate wellfare sucks.