The Terrorists have Won

[IlyaK1986]

Originally Posted by nolla

Ilya, you know what is wrong with your anecdotes? You expect U.S. to be the cop. This is not the case. If we say that after 9/11 U.S. had nuked Afghanistan and Irak, It would have been more like this:

You walk on the street and some guy comes and punches you and says that it is because you are different. After that you go get your guns and shoot him, shoot his family, shoot his neighbors and then ask if there is anyone there who thinks similarly. After that you shoot them too.

Being a cop is being service of a higher code than your own opinions and also to a system. U.S. is no cop. The only reason the rest of the world keeps tolerating this is because U.S. tries to minimize the collateral damage by applying some ethics to their crusades.



"Free world" ... sigh... how free is the world if the only option for the individual countries is to be like United States? "Otherwise we nuke you.."



You know, fuck off! You are a racist asshole who is willing to categorize all the people of certain religion or certain country by their worst individuals. Sure, I could do that too, I have nothing but disgust towards american foreign policy, american president and this attitude that you are showing. "We are the best fucking country dont come messing with us because we have a bomb." And why will I not say that all the americans are like you or bush? Because I know better. You are an ignorant sob who I hope will be sent to fight the next american crusade. You will maybe then see some gray areas between the black and the white. Speaking of black and white, do you hate different colors too? Are the gays to be killed? How about all the mormons and other sects?

Nevermind, just piss off...

9/11 like getting punched in the face? More like getting shot. So if someone shoots you, you shoot him. In fact, you should shoot him BEFORE he shoots you ideally. That's how it works with police. And yes, America IS relied on as the world's cop ever since 1918 when we saved Europe from Germany the FIRST time.

And the US being a crusader...hahahahaha...that's just funny. If we were a crusader, we'd be in far more places than Iraq and Afghanistan.

As for your free world comment, who says "be like us or we nuke you"? Keep to yourself, don't come and kill our people or the people of your allies, and we leave you alone. But if you try to kill us, we will kill you and all you hold dear.

As for your last comment: you're *damn right* I judge people by their worst. That's not called racism in my book. Know what that's called? Risk management. And I don't hate any groups of people, unless said groups of people decide to impose themselves on everyone else. The African Americans don't impose themselves, nor do the gays, nor do the Mormons or any other sects.

I happen to think religion is bullshit as a whole, but I'm not crusading about it. If you agree with me, great. If not, oh well, your loss.

[edel weiss]

Originally Posted by nolla

You know, fuck off! You are a racist asshole who is willing to categorize all the people of certain religion or certain country by their worst individuals. Sure, I could do that too, I have nothing but disgust towards american foreign policy, american president and this attitude that you are showing. "We are the best fucking country dont come messing with us because we have a bomb." And why will I not say that all the americans are like you or bush? Because I know better. You are an ignorant sob who I hope will be sent to fight the next american crusade. You will maybe then see some gray areas between the black and the white. Speaking of black and white, do you hate different colors too? Are the gays to be killed? How about all the mormons and other sects?

Nevermind, just piss off...

I couldn't bring myself to say it like you, so I'd just like to say that I agree.

[Jen]

Ummm.... Anyone?

Maybe a cooling off period and corner assignment is in order.

[IlyaK1986]

Would it be better if I used a more politically correct term?

This is what I'm talking about when I say "the noose of political correctness is killing us".

Once we STOP with the political correctness and trying to please so many different people and not be afraid to resort to might if our opponents believe that might makes right, we can get much more done.

Edit: And by the way, I don't use the term towel-heads for everybody. I mean it quite literally. In a lot of the pictures we see in the media, you have people with big beards wearing...well...more or less...TOWELS...on their heads.

That's not a towel-head to you?

[Jack Flak]

This debate makes sense. It's valid, worthwhile. Without the name-calling maybe.

[edel weiss]

An eye for an eye makes the while world blind. Yeah, I know it's corny but I think it's true. Shrug.

The US undoubtly has done many great things, but it has messed up a lot as well. The Iraq War, in my opinion, is one of those mess ups.
Nobody is trying to defend terrorism here, but bracketing an entire community and ruining their lives just because of a few people doesn't seem like the best thing to do. It just fires up further communal hatred - and trust me, I've seen where this leads. I see it everyday. My country has been wracked with terrorists attacks for years now. Nobody is even surprised when we hear of bomb blasts, they're practically taking place weekly now.

But using this to impose draconian standards on *all* people, especially people who just happen to be from the same community? Not good. Even from a purely utilitarian perspective, it fuels more hatred, more violence, and more deaths.

And that's not the world most of us would want to live in.

[IlyaK1986]

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Two eyes for one eye means that you might take out one of mine, but I'll leave you blind.

I'm not proposing retaliation in kind. I'm proposing setting a message once and for all that:

"You are rational. Therefore, you will not attack us for fear of putting all of your people to death. If you attack us, you and your entire nation get burned off the planet. Be rational, live in peace, and we won't harm you. Fuck with us, and die."

The threat of force is a far better weapon than the use of it. But in order for the threat of it to work, we must show that we are willing to use it.

Edit: Edel, have you also ever thought about why terrorism is as rampant in India as it is? Could it be BECAUSE of this philosophy of live and let live and don't punish the many for the deeds of a few? For some reason, despite these many being given such a terrible name by these few, they seemingly do nothing about them!

[edel weiss]

The US accounts for nearly half of the entire world's military spending. Most of the world is plenty scared.

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I see what you mean, yet I do not like the idea of
"you and your entire nation get burned off the planet"

It seems terribly unjust to kill innocent people merely to scare a few.

[Oleander]

Sad thing is that no one side has all the shits. There are fundamentalist Muslims as ready to kill every other Muslim as they are every other religion, just the religious Khmer Rouge. There are fundamentalist Christians not much different. But one thing that can't be got away from is that one country has always stood out and greeted all criticism, even from its own co-religionists, with hysterical accusations of racial prejudice.

Israel.

The terrorism that established Israel and that it has continued to perpetrate can't be undone and neither can its existence. Nearly all countries exist only because foreigners invaded and drove the natives out. In the Americas it happened in the last 500 years, in Europe in maybe the last 5,000. Noever mind, it happened.

Until Israel as a 'Jewish State' is replaced by a 'State for Jews' (among others) there will never be peace in West Asia. It is all too frightening that fundamentalists of all three Biblical religions (four if that inculdes Mormons) need 'Armageddon' before the Messiah can arrive. Therefore peace delays His arrival and War is God's Will.

[IlyaK1986]

Originally Posted by edel weiss

The US accounts for nearly half of the entire world's military spending. Most of the world is plenty scared.

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I see what you mean, yet I do not like the idea of
"you and your entire nation get burned off the planet"

It seems terribly unjust to kill innocent people merely to scare a few.

Edel, I'm sure everyone knows the story of America. We weren't always this giant nation stretching from sea to shining sea. We started off as 13 little colonies under the rule of the British as just another trading post to be taxed and not represented.

We revolted--and we won. Us little Americans against the mighty British. (Fine, I'm an immigrant from Kiev--I still consider myself American, because it was America that allowed my mother to bring us from out of poverty!)

Do you honestly think that all of those many people can't topple the "few" extremists, if that's honestly the case? Or is it that there are far more of these people more in favor of the government than you claim to be?

For plenty of nations to be scared, it seems that the Pakistanis aren't scared since their troops are firing on ours simply because of national sovereignty (never mind the terrorists within their borders!). The Iranians are not scared, judging by how they're trying to hide their nuclear program (otherwise, why wouldn't they open every single facility up to UN inspectors?).

Clearly, we have not scared the world enough because despite our military spending, we can't even clearly win two conflicts in two small desert nations.