The Terrorists have Won

[whatever]

Originally Posted by Oberon

No. The war created opportunities for criminal mayhem, it's true, but the criminals are still responsible for the mayhem.

I'm not saying that we did it, but I'm saying that our hands aren't completely clean in that matter.

(though I, personally, think that invading Iraq in the first place was a shitty move )

[Anja]

Every nation has had it's rise and decline and I see no reason that the US should be an exception. Whether it could happen so relatively rapidly remains to be seen.

As many, I have been pondering this.

Imagine I have more to say, but the thought that came to mind reading the OP is that whatever one (nations included) puts the most value on is where he (they) will be the most vulnerable.

[Antisocial one]

Actually, if we were trying to not lose our "good cop" status, that failed miserably as well.

This is probably the biggest loss you have had in this wars.


Few years back there was a comment im my local newspapers: The beginning of the end for the Soviet union was invasion on Afghanistan, will the same story be with the USA?

I admit that it is strange that the two biggest superpowers in the 20. century had so much problems with one country that is in theory nothing and nobody.

But Ilyak is right.
I have said to many people that USA is losing the wars deliberatly. If the USA pulls out all the guns and chemicals and forgets that there is something known as ethics the problem would be solved in two weeks.

The only problem is how the rest of the world will take this measures.


On the other hand they could approve this because they are annoyed by the entire thing and this had to be done to end this.

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by Anja

Every nation has had it's rise and decline and I see no reason that the US should be an exception. Whether it could happen so relatively rapidly remains to be seen.

As many, I have been pondering this.

Imagine I have more to say, but the thought that came to mind reading the OP is that whatever one (nations included) puts the most value on is where he (they) will be the most vulnerable.

The United States doesn't have to decline. We can set a new example by willingly abandoning the imperial role, cutting the insane taxing and spending, and getting back to being an economic power first and foremost.

[Antisocial one]

Every nation has had it's rise and decline and I see no reason that the US should be an exception. Whether it could happen so relatively rapidly remains to be seen.

It not that simple. If US falls apart in any way that means that it will in all other ways with time. What means that the dollar will be worthless.
But if I have the right number US makes around 1/3 of the worlds GDP. Also The 3/4 of money reserves of the world are in dollars what means that entire world has a problem. If dollar crushes the global economy will crash what means that other currencys will crash also.

In that case there are only two options, new "new deal" or beginning of new era.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by pure_mercury

The United States doesn't have to decline. We set a new example by willingly abandoning the imperial role, cutting the insane taxing and spending, and getting back to being an economic power first and foremost.

Yes, this is all true... but sadly, it will never happen. Old men many years from now will sit over their beer and wonder why they didn't do those things when they could have.

[IlyaK1986]

Originally Posted by whatever

And on that note, you're ignoring of "collateral damage" would make Mr. McVey quite proud.

In baseball, if you bat .300, you're considered amazing. If you've ever read Gulliver's travels, one of the points is that if the people would just rise up against their government, they can easily overthrow it.

They haven't. They won't. They're guilty enough by association. As guilty as Mahmoud I'm-a-nut-job or the Ayatollahs? No. But if they're part of the collateral damage, oh fucking well.

All of this pulling our punches and the noose of political correctness and our bleeding hearts are the terrorists' best assets. Not their petrodollars, and not their fanatical beliefs either. It's simply our unwillingness to make Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a tiny pinprick that has everyone saying "hey look, America is tying its own hands! Get 'em!"

Will it paint us as a truly bad cop out only for our own interests and not that of the world if we decide to eradicate any nation that fucks with us? You bet.

And I say: so what? Isn't that how we're seen already? As the fat, greedy, selfish, imperialistic Americans?

So I say it's time to stop pretending the world loves us. They never have--and they never will. Even when we came to Britain as it was being carpet bombed by nazi bombers, the most memorable line from those times was:

"The Americans are overpaid, oversexed, and over here."

And then we more or less singlehandedly rebuilt Europe with the Marshall Plan, which cost us what our bailout today is costing us. Do we have any gratitude? I think the answer to that one is obvious.

Furthermore, who will cry if we annihilated the middle east? The Europeans, who are up to their noses in disgusting bearded towel-heads building ugly mosques everywhere and crying DEATH TO EUROPE after some political cartoons?

So I say we finish up in Iraq and Afghanistan, pull out in sixteen months, and if the situation goes to shit and the country falls apart, we just take no prisoners and pacify the place from above. And any other nation that decides to fuck with us.

The answer is simple: put the burden of nation-building on the people of that nation, because if they elect leaders that try to attack the free world, the response won't just be some surgical anti-terrorism ground campaign, but eradication from above.

Simple, clean, effective, and the way Genghis Khan did it.

[edel weiss]

I guess other people's lives don't matter, as long as American lives are saved.

[Antisocial one]

Originally Posted by edel weiss

I guess other people's lives don't matter, as long as American lives are saved.

In the case of nuking there will be dead Americans for sure.

[nolla]

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

To tell you the truth, I have no idea. People say nuclear weapons are a last resort. I don't understand why. If someone points a gun at a cop, he doesn't try diplomacy there. He shoots the motherfucker dead and explains himself later.

The same example can be applied towards nations. If one nation is threatening you, you annihilate said nation.

Ilya, you know what is wrong with your anecdotes? You expect U.S. to be the cop. This is not the case. If we say that after 9/11 U.S. had nuked Afghanistan and Irak, It would have been more like this:

You walk on the street and some guy comes and punches you and says that it is because you are different. After that you go get your guns and shoot him, shoot his family, shoot his neighbors and then ask if there is anyone there who thinks similarly. After that you shoot them too.

Being a cop is being service of a higher code than your own opinions and also to a system. U.S. is no cop. The only reason the rest of the world keeps tolerating this is because U.S. tries to minimize the collateral damage by applying some ethics to their crusades.

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

The answer is simple: put the burden of nation-building on the people of that nation, because if they elect leaders that try to attack the free world, the response won't just be some surgical anti-terrorism ground campaign, but eradication from above.

"Free world" ... sigh... how free is the world if the only option for the individual countries is to be like United States? "Otherwise we nuke you.."

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

Furthermore, who will cry if we annihilated the middle east? The Europeans, who are up to their noses in disgusting bearded towel-heads building ugly mosques everywhere and crying DEATH TO EUROPE after some political cartoons?

You know, fuck off! You are a racist asshole who is willing to categorize all the people of certain religion or certain country by their worst individuals. Sure, I could do that too, I have nothing but disgust towards american foreign policy, american president and this attitude that you are showing. "We are the best fucking country dont come messing with us because we have a bomb." And why will I not say that all the americans are like you or bush? Because I know better. You are an ignorant sob who I hope will be sent to fight the next american crusade. You will maybe then see some gray areas between the black and the white. Speaking of black and white, do you hate different colors too? Are the gays to be killed? How about all the mormons and other sects?

Nevermind, just piss off...