The Terrorists have Won

[Enyo]

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

That's also an issue. Don't deport them if caught. Jail them. Make a very bad example out of them. Send a message. Solve problem.

Don't jail them. I don't want to pay for their asses in prison cells, either. I doubt that would make a sufficient example for the illegals, anyway. Our jails still are better than the jails they had in Mexico, I'd imagine.

[Enyo]

Originally Posted by CaptainChick

I knew it!!!

You know, I'm not a big fan of illegal immigrants, either. My family was here before the Revolution. However, I did legally immigrate to Canada. People doing it illegally piss me off. Especially when their non-taxpaying families cost my taxpaying dollars.

[Anja]

I just want to say a word to IlyaK. (At first glance I thought you were telling us you'd slipped a disc in your mid-back in 1986! Shows how I relate to stuff these days!)

I am very much impressed with the strong sense of pride you feel in being an American. I know how much more knowledgeable immigrants can be than native-born citizens historically speaking. Kudos.

But I think CC is hinting at something relevant. Correct me if I'm wrong, CC.

It occurs to me that the history books you've been reading are influencing your interpretations of the experience of being American.

Maybe someone can help me elaborate on this. Your POV is strongly of the old post WWII variety and thoughtful Americans are in process with understanding how this can-do sort of spirit has been damaging to our global reputation.

[Alpha Prime]

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

That's also an issue. Don't deport them if caught. Jail them. Make a very bad example out of them. Send a message. Solve problem.

Making an example sounds stupid and short term, especially since they are driven by desperation, the same desperation your parents felt when "legally" flew over the US border.

A better way is to go to the root of the "immigrants'" problem.

[Orangey]

Originally Posted by heart

Overpopulation is a myth. Die Malthus, die.

Heh, I know. He's kind of like Freud in that their sucky ideas, no matter how many times they're shown to be stupid (sorry Freud fans), keep getting resurrected over and over again. Someone needs to drive the nail in both these sucker's graves once and for all.

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by Enyo

You know, I'm not a big fan of illegal immigrants, either. My family was here before the Revolution. However, I did legally immigrate to Canada. People doing it illegally piss me off. Especially when their non-taxpaying families cost my taxpaying dollars.

I actually rather like it. If they can benefit by doing it, then they are invariably working off the books (no SIN) and unable to drain the system (no carecard, no SIN, etc). This gives the country a pool of below-market value labour.

Works for them, works for me!

[IlyaK1986]

Originally Posted by Anja

I just want to say a word to IlyaK. (At first glance I thought you were telling us you'd slipped a disc in your mid-back in 1986! Shows how I relate to stuff these days!)

I am very much impressed with the strong sense of pride you feel in being an American. I know how much more knowledgeable immigrants can be than native-born citizens historically speaking. Kudos.

But I think CC is hinting at something relevant. Correct me if I'm wrong, CC.

It occurs to me that the history books you've been reading are influencing your interpretations of the experience of being American.

Maybe someone can help me elaborate on this. Your POV is strongly of the old post WWII variety and thoughtful Americans are in process with understanding how this can-do sort of spirit has been damaging to our global reputation.

I don't think that our can-do spirit has been damaging our global reputation, at least not about the can-do spirit we hold in terms of the outstanding work we do, and that American workers are the best in the world (which I really give kudos to McCain for touching up on).

Where I think we went wrong in the world's eyes is saying "FUCK YOU WORLD!" and charging into Afghanistan and Iraq with very little backing and then getting ourselves into this mess like an angry drunk with a rifle that's doing who knows what.

We're seen as the fat loud-mouths pointing our guns every which way with our bark a lot stronger than our bite.

This is why I say if we're going to go at a nation alone, that we don't try to do it with troops. Troops aren't efficient, troops die, and troops get bogged down into costly morasses, both in terms of treasure, and priceless American blood.

Which is also why I was astounded about the troops question if Iran would attack Israel, what would the candidates do. If I was one of the candidates, I would ask:

"Here is a nation that has been calling for the annihilation of our allies, and the question is for troops? No. I wouldn't send in our troops. They're tired and worn down enough as it is. We have other means of waging war--other facilities and instruments that can deliver justice in far faster ways than troops armed with small-arms. I would use the full extent of American military might to pacify as need be any aggressive nation and carry out our peacekeeping role--by any means necessary."

Of course, that's a moot point. I wasn't born in the states, so I'll never get to be president. I of course do want power and influence to change this country, since I think America is capable of so much more if we make some changes in our economic policy and the way we spend our tax dollars.

But don't get me wrong--the reason America isn't liked right now is that we fucked up. Big time. We didn't use our by far and away most powerful weapon which delivers swift justice and ends conflicts almost bloodlessly, in terms of American lives, and that's our shining air force.

Our air force is stronger than it ever has been. We have a true stealth fighter--the F-22, and if we wished for a quick and bloodless (bloodless meaning no American blood is shed...I can't give less of a damn about the "civilians" that elected our enemies' leaders) end to any conflict, it would be a simple matter of delivering justice from above.

But about our can-do spirit, I believe that is what makes America what it is. It IS our can-do spirit that's been responsible for workers going to the assembly lines, for them to bust their asses doing anything they need to in order to support themselves and their families, that's been the reason for American advancement.

We need to tap that spirit again now in these times too, with jobs that can't be outsourced. If we can kick this green industrial revolution into overdrive and become a net energy exporter, we can A) rid ourselves of terrorist oil, B) settle our debts with the Chinese, C) cut our pollution to the point that we make Japan look dirty, and D) really clean up our global image.

Trust me, green energy is something I'll be harping about for a long, LONG time. Now at the moment, I want to go into finance, or to silicon valley, because I want to be among the most intelligent people, and because in addition to the green industrial revolution, I either want to come up with crazy new ways of implementing it from Silicon Valley, or to make sure that Wall Street gets its shit together and restores itself to its wonderful reputation that was bestowed upon it by the likes of Marcus Goldman and John Pierpont Morgan himself.

There's a lot of cleaning up to do in this country--but what the presidential candidates don't really say is that for all of their promises, the government can't do everything--and it's the Americans (both naturally born and those only nurtured here) that will be responsible for their futures--as they always have, always will be, but always have done better than the rest of this misbegotten world in doing so.

Edit: As for history, unless you count economics as non-quantitative, history has been by far and away my most favorite academic subject. There are too many great "dos" and "don'ts" in history for anyone to learn from. Anyone who's well-versed in history can cite any number of amazing historical figures in their decisions.

In terms of waging war, I believe no man has done it better than Temujin (most people know him better as Genghis Khan). He pulled no punches and did what was necessary to ensure the preservation and prosperity of his people while he was still alive--and indeed, the Han Dynasty (I believe that's what it was...if it's not please correct me...world history was three years ago for me) lasted for several generations, and only fell apart because the Mongols were poor administrators. But I do remember Marco Polo describing the saturnine peace on the Silk Road to Kublai Khan's court.

That peace was built with the lives of annihilated enemies. But in my opinion, it was most certainly worth it, certainly to European merchants, and certainly to the Mongols for their place in history. I believe that any leader who is intent on securing the preservation and prosperity of his people should follow Genghis Khan's example. Spare no instrument in achieving victory, and spare no enemy, either.

Edit: can we change the title of this thread? I hate seeing "The terrorists have won" every time I go to respond to it. How about just "another discussion on the current economic crisis"?

[whatever]

You know what? You can't blame your entire attitude of "fuck everyone else, go me and mine" on being an ENTJ- there's a lot of decent ENTJs out there who actually DO give a shit about other people. I think the problem may just be you.

Did it occur to you that the only reason that the dipshits in office HAVEN'T invaded any other countries may be that our troops are spread thin as it is and we can't fucking afford another war at the moment? (let alone the ones we're mired in now- I'm already pissed that I'll be paying off THAT debt for the rest of my life)

I'd tell you to go and live in another country for a while to get another perspective, but that would be irrelevant- you probably should quit internalizing the image you have of this country though and realize that every country has a lot more good people than bad people, and thier blood is on your hands if you're supporting thier killing. Maybe try living in Latin America for a while- there are plenty of regions there that view US as the terrorists for some of our past involvements (completely un-asked for) that threw thier countries into turmoil. You're too thick skulled to pick up on anything of that sort though.

It's pointless to argue with you, because your mind is incredibly narrow and closed, so don't even bother responding, I'm voicing my opinion to OTHER people mostly.

And next time you watch Team America please realize- it's making fun of us, not showing us as superheroes

[IlyaK1986]

Their blood is on my hands? Big whoop. Another number.

And whatever, as for living in another country:

Been there, done that. Have some nice, if hazy memories.

[whatever]

Originally Posted by IlyaK1986

Their blood is on my hands? Big whoop. Another number.

And whatever, as for living in another country:

Been there, done that. Have some nice, if hazy memories.

Like I said- it was totally irrelavant. I said I would have told you that, meaning that I was aware.

You're the type of fanatic you hate, btw.