Feminism

[GZA]

I did a quick search for threads about feminism but didn't really see anything. If there is already a thread about feminism, please delete this one and link me to the thread

What are your thoughts on feminism? What kind of idealogies do you like/dislike?

I don't really have any particular opinion, other than that it goes without saying that there should be gender equality. I'm a man, by the way.

I've heard some people say that feminism is irrelevant in modern society. What are your opinions on that?

I personally think thats pretty much true, by the way.

And lastly, I've heard people say that feminism has gotten to the point it opresses men. What are your opinions on that?

[Kiddo]

Women still only make 80 cents to every dollar that men make and in Conservative states, single mothers are still treated like trash. Just the other year in Idaho, one of our legislators made a rather remarkable comment when people were proposing some much needed improvements for child care. He said, "Why do we need child care? Good mothers stay home and take care of their children." I swear, some people are still stuck in the 50's.

Feminism will always be necessary while we live in a patriarchal society. Even our language has traditionally been set up to deny women opportunities with such words as "fireman" and "policeman" instead of the now politically correct, "fire fighter" and "police officer". As we become more egalitarian, feminism becomes less necessary, but there are still gaps to fill.

[CaptainChick]

Men are tools, we need them, and they serve a purpose.

They can often be frustrating.

Some men, however, are amazing, or perhaps I should say few.

Oh, and they're the expendable sex.

Thanks for the semen!!!!

[ygolo]

Feminism is a broad term.

There is still a lot of inequity in terms of pay, societal expectations, etc.

I believe in equal opportunity between genders.

So yes, still, feminism is still relevant today.

There have been many female leaders in the world, but the U.S. has yet to have a female Chief Executive.

I don't think equality means sameness, however. There are people who believe that "Women should be women, and men should be men." To me that sounds like a tautology, but I think they may be alluding to the indication that there are indeed biological differences between the genders.

Even admitting that, the stereotypes about upper body strength, longevity, mathematical vs. verbal ability, visio-spatial stuff vs. people management skills, etc. can be quite wrong when comparing two individuals.

I think the biases are still strong.

[GZA]

I agree with you on everything Kiddo, but I think the whole "Mailman" thing takes it a bit too far. I'm using mailman as an example, only because I actually do naturally say mailman, but I naturally say fire fighter and police officer, so they don't work. I know that there are plenty of female mailmen, and that it linguistically makes no sense to call mailmen "mailmen" collectively or generically refer to the "mailman", but I just kind of naturally say that. I think this is the line where political correctness is silly, where I would need to conciously correct myself even though everyone knows what I'm saying and what it actually means. I'd rather justify it by saying that "mailman" is a word that just happens to have the word "man" in it but is not related in definition to the word "man" Thats pretty much what it actually means to me anyway. I'd hate for someone to assume I'm sexist because of it, but I'm not going out of my way to alter a word I use extremely infrequently anyway.

I saw a show on TV saying that the reason women don't make as much as men is because there arn't as many women in the top positions of big businesses. Women now get more education than men, but there are still more men in the CEO positions, causing the income disparity.

[Magic Poriferan]

I would say feminism is a good thing. It still is necessary, not simply to continue progress, but because it will be needed to preserve that progress. Feminism needs to stick around until it is merely standard thought. When that happens, it will fall to the back of our minds, but it will stil exist in a sense.

Now, it must be said, there are a few things that come out of feminism that are aggravating, as usual. Theories about men being peripheral to the species, or women having the true key to life, those thing theories are both stupid and insulting at the same time. I think it's fairly reasonable to say that any time a feminist starts espousing the kind of babble that men used to oppress women, they are wrong.
Comment about sky-scrapers and missiles being phallic symbols are also retarded. The entire concept of the efficient of, the whole reason, behind sky-scrapers requires that they be built the way they are. Missile require something called "aero-dynamics". If some woman wants to try and design a competitive missile that's shaped like a vagina, all my luck goes to her.
I don't know how many feminists actually subscribe to these kinds of ideas, but I hope it's very few.

The other problem is all the crown wearers. They exist among every disenfranchised group. Women, blacks, Jews, gays.
They are the people that seem to be more interested in the sense of entitlement that comes with being an oppressed demographic than they are with making real progress. I dare say the might be afraid to have equality, because it would deprive the of the cause for all of their bitching.

As someone who is in favor of feminism, I think it might be the best course of action for feminists to eliminate these counter-productive sisters of theirs.

[Kiddo]

Originally Posted by GZA

I agree with you on everything Kiddo, but I think the whole "Mailman" thing takes it a bit too far.

The thing you have to remember is that historically, people have used language to subjugate and oppress others for centuries. Consider the words, "barbarians", "primitives", and "savages" which have been used to describe anyone considered less developed since the Greeks all the way to the American pioneers to even modern day. When you grow up being socialized to the idea of a "mailman" it's an unconscious association they are making between a mail carrier and masculinity. Language has a powerful influence over how we percieve and interpret the world around us, as well as the possibilities and opportunities that are open to us.

[wedekit]

Well, if you are more interested equality, have you ever looked into masculism?

Masculism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not one, but I found the idea interesting. It would be interesting to see the two different -isms combine into "equalitism" or something, lol. There are just so many things that are unequal between genders. These particular things are actually unequal/unfair in my opinion:

- Men forced to risk their lives in male-only conscripted military service.
(I used to enjoy watching girls' reactions when I would bring this up and say that because women aren't required to fight for their country they shouldn't be allowed to vote in it; thought it might not be what I personally believe, it is interesting to see them argue back about it)

- Male genital mutilation (circumcision) being socially accepted or even advocated as opposed to female genital mutilation.
(I really don't understand the point of this one)

- Equality in adoption rights (several states allow single women to adopt children but not single men).
(Yeah, this is pretty stupid)

- Biases in the justice system against men, such as higher incarceration rates and longer sentences for men (compared to women) for the same crimes.
(This is ridiculous as well)

- Cathy Young, who does not consider herself a "masculinist," argues that in rape cases, "the dogma that "women never lie" means that there is, for all intents and purposes, no presumption of innocence for the defendant".
(Very true; Lizzie Borden, anyone? lol)

- Men pay higher premiums for auto, health, life and disability insurance, though other forms of discrimination are prohibited.
(I've always wondered about this. My assumption is that there is statistical significance for men having more accidents than women, though I don't see why this constitutes anything since statistics never really "prove" anything, only suggest.)

- Bias in health concerns; for example, more advertisements and awareness for breast cancer than prostate cancer, though the latter kills more men than the former kills women.
(There's any interesting fact to know!)

And the list goes on. I just thought I should point out that there is plenty of inequality in relation to men as well. I find it hard to understand because I don't really see a huge difference in men in women in general. I only see the differences that society labels as the "norm", which is highly subjective depending on who you ask and how you look at it.

[Magic Poriferan]

Originally Posted by Kiddo

The thing you have to remember is that historically, people have used language to subjugate and oppress others for centuries. Consider the words, "barbarians", "primitives", and "savages" which have been used to describe anyone considered less developed since the Greeks all the way to the American pioneers to even modern day. When you grow up being socialized to the idea of a "mailman" it's an unconscious association they are making between a mail carrier and masculinity. Language has a powerful influence over how we percieve and interpret the world around us, as well as the possibilities and opportunities that are open to us.

I'm personally of the opinion that the language-cognition school of thought is highly exagerated. Newspeak would never have worked.

[GZA]

Originally Posted by CaptainChick

Men are tools, we need them, and they serve a purpose.

They can often be frustrating.

Some men, however, are amazing, or perhaps I should say few.

Oh, and they're the expendable sex.

Thanks for the semen!!!!

Anytime!


At what point do you guys think feminism stops being about feminism and starts just being a basic sense of justice. Obviously, all feminism is about justice, but at some point it would get to the point where it was just a specific injustice (i.e. sexual harrasment is a crime, should it be thought of as a crime against women or just as a crime in general?). What I'm really wondering is if you think that eventually considering things feminism or whatever divides things rather than bringing them together. Another example is violence against women -why not just stop violence against everyone, including women? Just an example.