Power and Politics

coberst · 10-20-2007, 12:20 PM

Power and Politics

Corporate America has developed a well-honed expertise in motivating the population to behave in a desired manner. Citizens as consumers are ample manifestation of that expertise. CA (Corporate America) has accomplished this ability by careful study and implementation of the knowledge of the ways of human behavior. I suspect this same structure applies to most Western democracies.

A democratic form of government is one wherein the citizens have some voice in some policy decisions; the greater the voice of the citizens in policy decisions the better the democracy.

In America we have policy makers, decision makers, and citizens. The decision makers are our elected representatives and are, thus, under some control by the voting citizen. The policy makers are the leaders of CA; less than ten thousand individuals, according to those who study such matters. Policy makers exercise significant control of decision makers by controlling the financing of elections.

Policy makers customize and maintain the dominant ideology in order to control the political behavior of the citizens. This dominant ideology exercises the political control of the citizens in the same fashion as the consuming citizen is controlled by the same dominant ideology.

An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. CT (Critical Thinking) is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today

htb · 10-20-2007, 02:23 PM

American corporations certainly pay one of the highest tax rates in the industrialized world; which seems unlikely to occur in your acronymous theory.

Athenian200 · 10-20-2007, 08:06 PM

So, what you're saying is that the financial influence of Corporate leaders is undermining the Democratic system in the United States?

Why do you think learning critical thinking would resolve this?

Kiddo · 10-20-2007, 08:23 PM

I agree to an extent with the OP. America has become a Corporate Oligarchy. You don't even really need critical thinking skills to realize this.

-It takes a lot of money to get elected which usually means you need corporate sponsorship.
-Even though we have a two party system, politicians will vote against their platform in favor of legislation supporting the corporate entities that helped them get elected.
-Most politicians will trust the corporate paid lobbyists to read the bills they need to vote on and then take the lobbyists advisement on how to vote.

I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but you get the idea.

Of course, the media won't give any air time to candidates who are actively pursuing the end to the oligarchy like...maybe...Ron Paul.

But I do disagree with the OP on democracy. America isn't a "democracy" it is a "representative democracy" formed by elitist delegates and set up in such a manner that the power rests with the wealthy and better educated.

Athenian200 · 10-20-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiddo

But I do disagree with the OP on democracy. America isn't a "democracy" it is a "representative democracy" formed by elitist delegates and set up in such a manner that the power rests with the wealthy and better educated.

I've always thought of it as a Constitutional Republic. Why do people keep calling it a democracy?

A democracy is a form of government in which citizens directly rule.

A republic is a form of government in voters elect representatives to rule for them.

I'm pretty sure we're the latter.

ptgatsby · 10-20-2007, 09:36 PM

The problem is systemic with the American system - it really doesn't have much to do with corporations. The method through which laws are passed can be gamed - as a result, the two party system is the natural outcome (defectors allow bribery and favors to be the norm). Concentration of power in order to buy force (ie: laws) is the natural outcome over a sufficient length of time.

Since it comes down to essentially dividing money among the representative's, the equilibrium is to play or die, leaving only those that do play. It also attracts certain types that play rather than stand on moral or greater good principles.

The problem isn't with corporations but the system itself. Corporations are the manifestation of central power in order to buy the US system. It is reaching a tipping point because of corporations, but the system is fundamentally flawed at the electoral level (the method through which power is attained) and congressional level.

Having said that, it's the same everywhere - politics always does this. The US is simply farther along one particular path where the end effects of the "management" style are starting to be felt. It's heavily biased towards being bought and so... it is being bought.

Kiddo · 10-20-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by athenian200

A republic is a form of government in voters elect representatives to rule for them.

I'm pretty sure we're the latter.

Well that is just splitting hairs. The terms Representative Democracy and Republic are used pretty synonymously.
.
Representative democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Constitutional republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If anything, a constitutional republic is a mix of the two.

whatever · 10-20-2007, 10:28 PM

Ah- I use a political dictionary to find definitions of terms! (yes- I've even read it a-z!) A representative democracy is a government in which citizens elect their governing officials, often by designated geographic area. A republic is a government in which people elect their prime minister or president. A constitutional republic is a government in which the people elect their pm or pres and the government is limited by the nation's constitution.

The US government is different from most governments in the world because while we are considered a representative democracy, we also have the electoral college for presidential elections, which technically isn't the citizens voting (remember the election of 2000?).

A good majority of problems in the government come from personal greed on the part of humans in general (legislators in specific), the fact that we have single member districts (yes- I can explain how that causes problems, but that would take too much room), a two party system and a culture that rewards rich people.

As long as influence can be bought it will be bought, and that's where the corporate/govt. in bed with each other problem comes from!

Sorry- this is actually something that I do know quite a bit about and may have been a bit enthusiastic about!

wildcat · 10-21-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htb

American corporations certainly pay one of the highest tax rates in the industrialized world; which seems unlikely to occur in your acronymous theory.

Naivete.

The big and the powerful do not pay the taxes.

The small and the humble do.

htb · 10-21-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcat

Naivete.

The big and the powerful do not pay the taxes.

The small and the humble do.

Illiteracy.

The traduced "Top One Percent" of earners pay nearly half of all taxes.

The state told you that the entrepreneur was taking your money -- and you believed it.

10-20-2007, 12:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
coberst Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Type: Posts: 150	Power and Politics Power and Politics Corporate America has developed a well-honed expertise in motivating the population to behave in a desired manner. Citizens as consumers are ample manifestation of that expertise. CA (Corporate America) has accomplished this ability by careful study and implementation of the knowledge of the ways of human behavior. I suspect this same structure applies to most Western democracies. A democratic form of government is one wherein the citizens have some voice in some policy decisions; the greater the voice of the citizens in policy decisions the better the democracy. In America we have policy makers, decision makers, and citizens. The decision makers are our elected representatives and are, thus, under some control by the voting citizen. The policy makers are the leaders of CA; less than ten thousand individuals, according to those who study such matters. Policy makers exercise significant control of decision makers by controlling the financing of elections. Policy makers customize and maintain the dominant ideology in order to control the political behavior of the citizens. This dominant ideology exercises the political control of the citizens in the same fashion as the consuming citizen is controlled by the same dominant ideology. An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. CT (Critical Thinking) is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today

10-20-2007, 08:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
Athenian200 Fragmented Being Join Date: Jul 2007 Type: InfJ Location: C:\ Posts: 5,781	So, what you're saying is that the financial influence of Corporate leaders is undermining the Democratic system in the United States? Why do you think learning critical thinking would resolve this? __________________ "I'm not much more than an interpreter, and not very good at telling stories. Well, not at making them interesting, anyways." --C3-P0, Star Wars IV: A New Hope

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10-20-2007, 02:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
htb Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Type: ENTJ Posts: 1,375	American corporations certainly pay one of the highest tax rates in the industrialized world; which seems unlikely to occur in your acronymous theory.

10-20-2007, 08:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
Kiddo Furry Critter with Claws Join Date: Sep 2007 Type: OMNi Posts: 2,800	I agree to an extent with the OP. America has become a Corporate Oligarchy. You don't even really need critical thinking skills to realize this. -It takes a lot of money to get elected which usually means you need corporate sponsorship. -Even though we have a two party system, politicians will vote against their platform in favor of legislation supporting the corporate entities that helped them get elected. -Most politicians will trust the corporate paid lobbyists to read the bills they need to vote on and then take the lobbyists advisement on how to vote. I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but you get the idea. Of course, the media won't give any air time to candidates who are actively pursuing the end to the oligarchy like...maybe...Ron Paul. But I do disagree with the OP on democracy. America isn't a "democracy" it is a "representative democracy" formed by elitist delegates and set up in such a manner that the power rests with the wealthy and better educated.

10-20-2007, 09:36 PM	#6 (permalink)
ptgatsby Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Type: ISTP Location: Vancouver, BC, CA Posts: 4,091	The problem is systemic with the American system - it really doesn't have much to do with corporations. The method through which laws are passed can be gamed - as a result, the two party system is the natural outcome (defectors allow bribery and favors to be the norm). Concentration of power in order to buy force (ie: laws) is the natural outcome over a sufficient length of time. Since it comes down to essentially dividing money among the representative's, the equilibrium is to play or die, leaving only those that do play. It also attracts certain types that play rather than stand on moral or greater good principles. The problem isn't with corporations but the system itself. Corporations are the manifestation of central power in order to buy the US system. It is reaching a tipping point because of corporations, but the system is fundamentally flawed at the electoral level (the method through which power is attained) and congressional level. Having said that, it's the same everywhere - politics always does this. The US is simply farther along one particular path where the end effects of the "management" style are starting to be felt. It's heavily biased towards being bought and so... it is being bought.

10-20-2007, 10:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
whatever shameless hussy Join Date: Oct 2007 Type: entp Location: wherever Posts: 7,620	Ah- I use a political dictionary to find definitions of terms! (yes- I've even read it a-z!) A representative democracy is a government in which citizens elect their governing officials, often by designated geographic area. A republic is a government in which people elect their prime minister or president. A constitutional republic is a government in which the people elect their pm or pres and the government is limited by the nation's constitution. The US government is different from most governments in the world because while we are considered a representative democracy, we also have the electoral college for presidential elections, which technically isn't the citizens voting (remember the election of 2000?). A good majority of problems in the government come from personal greed on the part of humans in general (legislators in specific), the fact that we have single member districts (yes- I can explain how that causes problems, but that would take too much room), a two party system and a culture that rewards rich people. As long as influence can be bought it will be bought, and that's where the corporate/govt. in bed with each other problem comes from! Sorry- this is actually something that I do know quite a bit about and may have been a bit enthusiastic about!