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Thread: Is Obama Really Going to Win?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Everyone's cranky on the PHCE boards now. Let's all chill out a bit, and be thankful we live in a country where we can (obnoxiously) debate politics over the Internet and in person. At least, we can for now.
    YOU'RE cranky. *stomps around*

  2. #82
    Senior Member Array kuranes's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder why anybody that's scraping along in the current economy or whatever would vote for McCain, but I figure that maybe some of them think Obama's lying about not planning on taxing people much that are making less than $200,000.00

    The notion that one can always penalize businesses ( in a meaningful way, even by leftist standards ) for not looking at the country ( or contemporary society ) altruistically is also one that bears looking at. Sometimes these things can work and sometimes not, depending on how they're structured. But some penalties will simply be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices or "well, I guess we're not hiring then" stances.

    Still, I'm thankful for things like "having the weekend off" and other things that unions brought into being.

    I think booya brought up the subject long ago that the current terminology we still all mostly use for discussing things is out of date, and so it makes me chuckle to hear things like "that smells like socialism to me" delivered as mantras or distractions to more complex and thoughtful discussion. Or why it is assumed that corruption is more likely to occur in government than it is in corporations ( price fixing etc. ) etc. Some of the assumptions that these seem to rest on are just as idealistic ( "in a perfect market you wouldn't see that" ) as leftist utopia.

    Communism is different from Socialism and an entire system of Socialism is different than taking one area and socializing it, just as people were saying when they qualified what they would put up with in a commune. ( In that thread. ) So to just lump them all together....Also it is usually left unsaid why having some socialist things is supposed to be so terrible, as though it "goes without saying" in its sheer monstrous intentions.

    Same as the word "Conservative" doesn't necessarily mean "Neo-Con". There are a lot of things that both leftists and people on the right dislike about Bush's administration, for example.

    I might be for gun rights but not be interested in combining church and state, for example. Who do I look to ( as a party that realistically has some actual power ) for that ?

    I might think it's silly for environmentalists to not even allow roads built for firemen to use, when battling forest fires. There's other Leftist pet notions I don't always buy.

    If we talk about making things more efficient ( in order to accomplish some of the changes most people seem to think are necessary now ) then I might look at the insurance industry and criticize their preference for taking care of claims in an old fashioned snail mail way because it ( makes good "business sense" ) actually is to their benefit to pay claims very slo-o-o-wly. What's "good business" for them is bad for us. And all of this "just opt out then, or start your own insurance company" baloney is just that.

    The very fact that we must all buy insurance or be gambling with big responsibilities is one I don't like, but have to put up with, just like people complain about putting up with taxes. I can opt out, technically, but I'll probably be penalized big time later for it. And insurance companies "spread the risk", which is another thing that Socialism is supposed to do.

    The idea that everything can be started or accomplished by sheer determination or "hard work" is funny, too, as I imagine someone starting from square one with a idea for a landscaping biz. "Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" ( using this as an analogy ) would mean starting out the biz with some scissors and a shovel prior to the lawn mower, and eventually saving up enough by cutting lawns this way to buy the mower. Throwing someone a line five feet long when they're drowning ten feet out, and saying "I'm meeting you halfway" is another. "If you don't like gas prices, just start your own gas company and be one of the guys making the profit" - these bromides are overly simplistic.

    The notion that locals are best equipped for decision making ( the Federalist position ) is one that I hear a lot. Peguy brought it up on the Roosevelt thread. There was a quote about Eisenhower he was challenging or inquiring about. Later, after looking at it in its original context, he talked about how Ike had thought about the perils of allowing the state to have too much power, and that they could always make it seem like they were doing things in the public interest by appealing to the mob, like Nero ( or some other Roman emperor ) throwing bread and circuses out from time to time. I can appreciate that criticism. It's the same reason why I don't always want the "mob" ( the much praised "locals", sometimes ) to always have the last word on issues affecting me, considering also how quickly demagogues and cult leaders can surface. Ike also warned about the perils of the military industrial complex, and it's that very thing that many leftists are protesting, while being met with jeers about "corporations know best".

    The idea that if there is enough of a demand for something, a supply for it will always appear is another overly simplistic notion to me. In some cases this is the function of a government to look at long term needs that couldn't simply be cobbled together ( no matter how much money one threw it at ) quickly by the private sector to address those things. Obviously the market does come up with some things that we need and want, but it's not like this is some scientific "formula". If the demand for "the pure market" was so high then wouldn't somebody ( or a group of somebodies ) already be supplying it ? ( In the "market for markets" so to speak. )
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  3. #83
    Queen hunter Array Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post


    Really the only danger comes from a gun culture going into recession. A lone gunman or gunwoman would seem to be his greatest risk. But as President he will be well protected by the secret service.
    But who will protect him from secret service?

  4. #84
    Senior Member Array NoahFence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    I find it astonishing that someone in government believing in government is seen as a positive thing for so many people.
    Didn't that used to be called "power hungry"?
    It's the opposite. Power hungry is using the government to further your own ends, and be damned to everyone else. Sure, sure, Obama is no different, he wants power to further his own ends, but his ends seem less centered on himself and more on the populace, so I don't think that counts as "power hungry".

    (Note that "your own ends" can, and currently does, include "your own peeps' ends")
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  5. #85
    Senior Member Array Eileen's Avatar
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    Here's some pie, friends:

    Is Obama Really Going to Win?-churrant_pie_hope-thumb-jpg

    No matter what happens, it's probably going to be okay.

    So. You know. Shut your pie holes, or fill them. With pie. And ice cream. And economic stimulus packages.
    Is Obama Really Going to Win? Attached Images
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #86
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    I want pie.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Array Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I want pie.
    VOTE 4 OBAMAPIE
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Array NoahFence's Avatar
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    Mmmm...stimpacks...



    I think we need economic RadAway, too.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  9. #89
    unscannable Array Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Whew... I gotta sit down.

    I think I'm suffering from an irony overdose.
    Of all the hateful things that have been said, this cuts the deepest.

    Eileen, I'll have some of that pie with whip cream please.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Array swordpath's Avatar
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    How would it take "intuition" to appreciate Obama? An appreciation for Socialism is more like it.

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