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  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    you're an intelligent poster
    Speaking of...



    LOL

  2. #312
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It took you how many elections to realize that most people vote based on personal biases and cartoonishly inaccurate characterizations of major party candidates? I am not trying to be a dick here at all, but you're an intelligent poster, and old enough to vote. Didn't you see how this game is played pretty much from the beginning? The voting public, in general, is completely and totally ignorant, even (sometimes, especially) the people who are totally involved and have the signs on the lawn and the whole thing. For the vast majority of people, it's half-beauty pageant, half-sports event. They want to show off their colors, and they want to be on the winning team.

    The media is complicit in it, too. They have the analysis and the pundits talking about policy and demographics, but mainly it's about personalities and speculation on the horse race. People eat it up, reporters keep their jobs with travel and respect and expense accounts, and the corporate bosses get rich.
    I have an excuse . This is the first election I'm voting in and thus have given full attention to. And it is depressing beyond my wildest dreams! I didn't think it would be perfect and logically done all around, but no matter how many times I remind myself to be cynical, it's impossible for me to watch half the campaign speeches and debates without taking a bat to my TV.
    ALL AROUND THE WORLD PEOPLE EATIN' GUMBO

  3. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiL View Post
    I have an excuse . This is the first election I'm voting in and thus have given full attention to. And it is depressing beyond my wildest dreams! I didn't think it would be perfect and logically done all around, but no matter how many times I remind myself to be cynical, it's impossible for me to watch half the campaign speeches and debates without taking a bat to my TV.

    Congratulations. Wanting to take a bat to your television during election season means that your neurological system is in fine working order.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #314
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    I quit watching the debates three elections ago, when I realized that they were just like the cafeteria-table arguments I used to have in high school. Those are won not by being right, or arguing best, but by scoring the most and best zingers on your opponent. If at the end you appear cooler than the other guy, you've won... doesn't matter if you're actually reasonable or not.

  5. #315
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It took you how many elections to realize that most people vote based on personal biases and cartoonishly inaccurate characterizations of major party candidates? I am not trying to be a dick here at all, but you're an intelligent poster, and old enough to vote.
    Thanks, Dad.

    I'll just say this once to get it out of my system: I'll judge whether or not I think you're being a dick by how you TALK to me, not by whether or not you're tell me you are or aren't one. Understand? And the implied condescension in the way you talk to people sort of sets me on edge.

    Okay, done.

    Didn't you see how this game is played pretty much from the beginning? The voting public, in general, is completely and totally ignorant, even (sometimes, especially) the people who are totally involved and have the signs on the lawn and the whole thing. For the vast majority of people, it's half-beauty pageant, half-sports event. They want to show off their colors, and they want to be on the winning team.
    That's a pretty cynical view.

    I see the reality of it as you describe, but usually there's some more idealism mixed into it as well, than what you're allowing for.

    The media is complicit in it, too. They have the analysis and the pundits talking about policy and demographics, but mainly it's about personalities and speculation on the horse race. People eat it up, reporters keep their jobs with travel and respect and expense accounts, and the corporate bosses get rich.
    True. There's a lot of that involved.

    So that's all you see, though? Just the cynical practical realities of it?

    Oh yeah, Jack -- thanks for the immensely witty Hitler banner I've already seen elsewhere in this forum, I like the way it matches with the colors of my site theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I quit watching the debates three elections ago, when I realized that they were just like the cafeteria-table arguments I used to have in high school. Those are won not by being right, or arguing best, but by scoring the most and best zingers on your opponent. If at the end you appear cooler than the other guy, you've won... doesn't matter if you're actually reasonable or not.
    That's actually pretty typical for many types of arguments, not just political ones.

    The winner is the better arguer, rather than the person who is actually correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Congratulations. Wanting to take a bat to your television during election season means that your neurological system is in fine working order.
    But if I do that, I won't be able to watch "Housewives of Orange County" anymore!!!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #316
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's actually pretty typical for many types of arguments, not just political ones.

    The winner is the better arguer, rather than the person who is actually correct.
    That isn't actually what I meant. Under these terms you can actually argue exceedingly poorly and still come off looking like a winner.

    Like in this scene that Tolkien put in Fellowship:

    All right, said Sam, laughing with the rest. But what do you say about those Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.

    Whos they?

    My cousin Hal for once. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.

    Says he did, perhaps. Your Hals always saying hes seen things; and maybe he sees things that aint there.

    But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.

    Then I bet it wasnt an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not.

    But this one was walking, I tell you; and there aint no elm tree on the North Moors.

    Then Hal cant have seen one, said Ted. There was some laughing and clapping: the audience seemed to think that Ted had scored a point.

  7. #317
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Yay! I voted yesterday.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  8. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thanks, Dad.

    I'll just say this once to get it out of my system: I'll judge whether or not I think you're being a dick by how you TALK to me, not by whether or not you're tell me you are or aren't one. Understand? And the implied condescension in the way you talk to people sort of sets me on edge.

    Okay, done.
    The condescension must be inferred, rather than implied. I am not trying to imply any such thing. I certainly don't talk to people like I am their father. I attempt to talk to people as if they are my intellectual equal.


    That's a pretty cynical view.

    I see the reality of it as you describe, but usually there's some more idealism mixed into it as well, than what you're allowing for.
    Yes, it is, but politics is a cynical game. The reason I am cynical is because I am an idealist. I honestly believe that the world would be a much, much better place if these people vying for power had much, much less of it. I am an idealist because I still believe that people can realize this and that they can change the country into a freer, richer place where Barack Obama or John McCain matter very little, and they, their families, their churches, and their jobs matter more. It has not happened in my lifetime, it won't happen this time, and it may never happen. That frustrates the hell out of me.


    True. There's a lot of that involved.

    So that's all you see, though? Just the cynical practical realities of it?
    Well, think about it this way: not only do I see the ugly, venal side of politics, but both major parties fight for things that I consider absolutely abhorrent. I would never in a million years consider voting for George W. Bush, Al Gore, John Kerry, John McCain, or Barack Obama. In fact, the vast majority of the platforms of these candidates would be unconstitutional and counterproductive. Do you see how difficult it is for me to appreciate the idealistic side of things? I don't want 90% of what these people are trying to give me. I don't want 90% of what the government does already. Idealists with bad ideas are WAY worse than the self-absorbed and greedy.


    But if I do that, I won't be able to watch "Housewives of Orange County" anymore!!!
    I like those women more than 90+% of federal politicians, so please, go ahead and watch.



    P.S. I've had enough of the Hitler stuff, as well. It's funny once.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #319
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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  10. #320
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    As does whatever law which states "There's always someone who thinks Godwin's Law is news to anyone on Earth."

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