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  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    And there is no equivalent between choosing membership and making public statements of support for an anti-american group and serving with someone with a past on a board
    You're stretching here. Being an Alaskan Independence proponent does not make one automatically anti-American.


    Here's a question. What choices could Obama have made in the past so that this connection to Bill Ayers could not be established? Should he have refused to serve on the board of an anti-poverty group, the Woods Fund of Chicago, between 1999 and 2002 because Ayers was also on the board? Should Obama have decided to take Ayers down independently and started a negative campaign against him in Chicago to ruin his career? What were Obama's choices? What did he not do that he should have to avert this blemish on his record?
    He could have said, "I won't work with that awful piece of shit Bill Ayers. He should be locked up in prison for life."
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #262
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What were GWB's choices regarding his address of Bob Jones University in an intense primary battle? People still condemn that as a moral failing (and rightly so), despite the necessity of it.
    I'm not entirely familiar with that issue, but did he have to address Bob Jones University? Choosing to address a group in a show of support or criticism is a clear choice that gets penciled in to the schedule and all. Might that example be more similar to Palin addressing the Alaskan Independent Party? I'm guessing that was necessary to maintain their voter support so she could keep her political position. Are you suggesting the answer is the same as for the question I asked regarding Obama because I'm unable to make the connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You're stretching here. Being an Alaskan Independence proponent does not make one automatically anti-American.
    It would help to hear information from its prominent leaders that are in support of America. At this point I am only familiar with its founder's anti-American rhetoric which does suggest the group is anti-American if it is in line with its founder's beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    He could have said, "I won't work with that awful piece of shit Bill Ayers. He should be locked up in prison for life."
    I understand that position. There is also a question of whether or not he was fully aware of Ayers domestic terrorism at the time. If I were in Obama's shoes at the time I probably would not have considered it my place to start a campaign against Ayers. If Ayers' past affected the decisions of the board to the detriment of its mission, then I would be an outspoken proponent against that influence. I see value in the diplomatic approach that chooses its battles to win when it is the correct time and place to do so.

    The Bill Ayers issue might be a more significant one for the University of Illinois, since he has been influencing young minds to teach the nation's children for years now, and with great prestige and honor. I don't see those elementary school teachers as any less for that influence because it was focused on education not politics, but I would understand if one of them brought up the issue to the University's board. Do you see what I am getting at here? It is an issue of time and place and who has the authority to make a decision about the issue. Obama was not in a position of authority over Ayers to make a call to affect his position.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.

  3. #263
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What were GWB's choices regarding his address of Bob Jones University in an intense primary battle? People still condemn that as a moral failing (and rightly so), despite the necessity of it.
    Answer a question with another question....

    Okay, so now that it's virtually agreed that sometimes all candidates have to cross paths with people and organizations with questionable pasts/ideologies...
    ALL AROUND THE WORLD PEOPLE EATIN' GUMBO

  4. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It would help to hear information from its prominent leaders that are in support of America. At this point I am only familiar with its founder's anti-American rhetoric which does suggest the group is anti-American if it is in line with its founder's beliefs.
    No, that's not true. There is a GIGANTIC difference between despising the American government and being truly anti-American. Also, to the best of our knowledge, the man is not a terrorist, nor an advocate of violence against anyone. Your whole comparison is flawed.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Are you suggesting the answer is the same as for the question I asked regarding Obama because I'm unable to make the connection.
    The connection is that both men gave loose (Bush certainly didn't praise the formerly racist dating policies of BJU-on a side note, that's a funny acronym-and Obama never praised Ayers past nor his extreme viewpoints) endorsements of individuals/groups that most people would consider beyond the pale. Bush might very well owe his Presidential nomination to that address, the same way Obama's political career was started through his choice to become associated with Ayers. If one likes their policies well enough (or dislikes the policies of their opponents enough), then its understandable that such associations are brushed aside, but that dosn't mean its wrong to view such associations as a serious moral failing.

  6. #266
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
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    So because of his connection with Ayers, what exactly is it that everyone thinks Obama is going to do? Is he going to get in office and nuke us all because he hates America, or what?
    ALL AROUND THE WORLD PEOPLE EATIN' GUMBO

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiL View Post
    Answer a question with another question....

    Okay, so now that it's virtually agreed that sometimes all candidates have to cross paths with people and organizations with questionable pasts/ideologies...
    Actually, I'm answering a question that was in answer to an earlier question with a question.

    Edit: And to answer the question contained in the preceding post, no. People view such moral failings as indicators of how a seriously a politician would take issues that are important to that voter. For instance, people believed that Bush's actions were indicative of insensitivity to discrimination, so believed he would not adequately enforce anti-discrimination laws. In the case of Obama, people believe (among other things) that he considers terrorism a low priority.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 10-25-2008 at 12:38 PM. Reason: self-evident

  8. #268
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Actually, I'm answering a question that was in answer to an earlier question with a question.
    Ah. Forget Obama nuking us, you've already done blown my mind
    ALL AROUND THE WORLD PEOPLE EATIN' GUMBO

  9. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiL View Post
    So because of his connection with Ayers, what exactly is it that everyone thinks Obama is going to do? Is he going to get in office and nuke us all because he hates America, or what?
    No, I don't. It simply shows either poor judgment or a willingness to forgive terrible criminal acts for political benefit, or both. It simply reflects poorly on him. If he came right out and said, point-blank, "This guy was big in the community in Chicago and I heard he had a loony past, but I worked with him anyway. When I later found out he was an unrepentant terrorist, I punched him in the nose, left the organization, and I never spoke to him again," I'd be very impressed.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #270
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Kind of like the fear of Evangelicals? One person's irrational fear of the other is another's rational fear of the consequences that derive from specific belief systems.
    I may have some prejudices. However, Obama is not preying upon my fears, unlike what Palin and McCain are doing.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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