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  1. #171
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Right now, however, all I can see from your prior post is that we disagree.
    I agree with that.

  2. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The fear is justified, and government must be controled for sure.

    But many governmvents were quite successfull and democratic but they were
    "developed". Scandinavia is the best example.
    If you have some group why always pointing at the worst few in group.
    Even those countries have problems with their governments (anti-immigration extremists, forced abortions, etc.). It's endemic to governments to overstep their bounds and start to oppress their own people (and others, through war, colonization, poor trade and farm policy. . .).

    I see that we have cultural problem here.

    American and European view of something known as government are quite different.

    For me the government means something that is omnipresent and it regulates many things all the time. Influence on market included.
    The point of market is not that it works good, the point is that market creates enough for society to live and develope itself further.
    Market is not social goal it is just one more tool for society.

    Without good government you have corporate anarchy.What is once again something that can go in the same category as government gone bad.

    Markets exist with or without the government. Without any government, they'd still exist. And a large, bad government is far worse than a small, bad government. Possibly worse than no government at all, if it gets bad enough (Germany or Russia in the 20th Century, North Korea today).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    do you know why california has a budget shortfall?

    do you know who our taxes subsidize?

    tell me the right answer, and u get a prize.



    here's a big hint to the biggest redistribution of income around. its called federalism.

    California's Balance of Payments with the Federal Treasury, 1981-2002

    Why are states like California, Illinois, New York, Massachusetts subsidizing states like Kentucky, North Dakota, and Oklahoma? Answer that question in regards to your penchant for classifying ideology with redistribution of income, and you get a special prize homie.

    Federal Balance of Payments Per Capita, by State statistics - USA Census numbers

    True. Our problem in CA is mainly due to the massive amounts of federal spending. That's nothing new. I think it's funny how they try to portray the right as being big spenders, but CA is largely left leaning in its government and population.

  4. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    True. Our problem in CA is mainly due to the massive amounts of federal spending. That's nothing new. I think it's funny how they try to portray the right as being big spenders, but CA is largely left leaning in its government and population.
    Bush and Co. have proven that big government and tax-and-spend policies are not the sole dominion of the left.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Bush and Co. have proven that big government and tax-and-spend policies are not the sole dominion of the left.
    Exactly. ALL of government has turned into a massive money pump. Just look at what they're doing now. You can't blame one party or the other for it at this point.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    But there is redistribution of wealth going on. The rich/poor divide in this country is growing.

    I do not think you can really make a scriptural case for God having a problem with the involuntary redistribution of wealth benefiting the poor. Tithes are not a suggestion in a theocracy and a portion of those tithes were commanded to go to the poor. Farmers were forbidden from going over their fields a second time or from harvesting corners of their fields etc in order to allow for the poor to take what was left.
    1.) The rich/poor divide is a byproduct of wealth creation, not wealth redistribution. Having a relatively stagnant economy is bad for everybody (i.e. it does not benifit the poor), especially when combined with a large number of dependents.

    2.) Isn't tithing somewhat equivalent of a flat-tax, and don't those farming regulations apply to all people equally?

    3.) Modern Christianity (including virtually all American fundamentalists) rejects the whole notion of a theocracy as both spiritually and politically invalid.

    One could make a (very good) case for the fundamentalist Chiristian God disliking individual wealth, but arguing that He favors the "involuntary redistribution" of wealth is much more of a stretch.

  7. #177
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    True. Our problem in CA is mainly due to the massive amounts of federal spending. That's nothing new. I think it's funny how they try to portray the right as being big spenders, but CA is largely left leaning in its government and population.
    its not the massive amounts of federal spending. its that we pay more than our share. and some states don't pay their share.

    i don't think you fully grasp this concept. california essentially pays 100 billion per year to states like kentucky and oklahoma. do you understand that this is the biggest redistribution of income in america? does this register with you?

    don't pretend to be an idealogue if you are not. which is my entire point.

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    its not the massive amounts of federal spending. its that we pay more than our share. and some states don't pay their share.

    i don't think you fully grasp this concept. california essentially pays 100 billion per year to states like kentucky and oklahoma. do you understand that this is the biggest redistribution of income in america? does this register with you?

    don't pretend to be an idealogue if you are not. which is my entire point.
    Ooooh, scary. You brought up an aspect of state economics that I wasn't privy to. Oooh, everything I said is now in shambles. Or not, since that doesn't conflict with the points I've been making, but compliments them from another perspective. So good point and thank you for the insight . I don't pretend to know everything, I simply claim to know what I know, from the perspective I see.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    do you know why california has a budget shortfall?

    do you know who our taxes subsidize?

    tell me the right answer, and u get a prize.
    I would guess that California has a budget shortfall because a.) you spend more money that you recieve from taxes and, much more importantly, b.) your tax and regulatory policies are an expensive, complicated and risky pain in the ass for wealth-generating businesses.

    As for the subsidization issue, do Californians pay a higher percentage of their income to the national government based on their geographic location? Or are you instead bemoaning the consequences of having a Supreme Court which thinks that the Commerce Clause empowers the national government to do (and therefore give money in support of) just about anything?

  10. #180
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    lol, good call.

    Nice historical reference.

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