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  1. #161
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's false. Religious people are more likely to donate both time and effort to charity, faith-based or not.
    Uh.... my experience is -not- false, thank you.

    (Otherwise religious people wouldn't constantly have discussions from the pulpit, in private, and in organizational meetings about conflicts between their beliefs and charity. "Should we help AIDS victims if we don't approve of homosexuality?" and "How can we use our charity event in order to witness to other people for Jesus?" are pretty standard fare in my 35-40 years in the conservative church, and that's not even getting into it. This year we also have a lot of churches as per the news purposefully violating the political prohibitions for tax-exempt organizations in order to support particular candidates for the Presidency. Fun, huh?)

    However, I appreciate the correction if my experience has not reflective of the big picture statistics.
    (Which, I think, is YOUR point.)

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...so the food value of a bag of groceries is somehow negated if it also contains a tract?
    See above.

    I wouldn't complain about something that low-key.
    It's fine, even if annoying, to get tracts in my groceries.
    But that's not what I'm talking about.

    I have experienced consistently the attitude of "What charity events can we do in order to get people to believe the way we do?" as the predominant motivation.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #162
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    Derail threat: I love churches that refuse to help people because they're sinners. That is just...wow. What book did you guys read, exactly??
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  3. #163
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Uh.... my experience is -not- false, thank you.

    (Otherwise religious people wouldn't constantly have discussions from the pulpit, in private, and in organizational meetings about conflicts between their beliefs and charity. "Should we help AIDS victims if we don't approve of homosexuality?" and "How can we use our charity event in order to witness to other people for Jesus?" are pretty standard fare in my 35-40 years in the conservative church, and that's not even getting into it. This year we also have a lot of churches as per the news purposefully violating the political prohibitions for tax-exempt organizations in order to support particular candidates for the Presidency. Fun, huh?)

    However, I appreciate the correction if my experience has not reflective of the big picture statistics.
    (Which, I think, is YOUR point.)
    Fine, your anecdotal evidence differs from the big picture statistics. I also come from a rather moderate Catholic/East Coast background, so I am sure my anecdotal evidence would differ from yours.

    Also, I don't think there should be any prohibitions on churches (or anyone) supporting any political candidates. It's supposed to be a free country.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #164
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Fine, your anecdotal evidence differs from the big picture statistics. I also come from a rather moderate Catholic/East Coast background, so I am sure my anecdotal evidence would differ from yours.

    Also, I don't think there should be any prohibitions on churches (or anyone) supporting any political candidates. It's supposed to be a free country.
    Fine... if they pay taxes, like corporations and other groups.

    The last thing I think we need is for churches to be spending their tithe moneys promoting political candidates based on talking points... especially religions that don't draw their conclusions from broad observable reality but from some form of "organized revelation." That's why it scares the hell out of me to imagine Palin that close to the Presidency; I might be able to trust McCain to try to think through a situation, but she's just dandy with using the office as a direct bully pulpit for her preconceived beliefs.

    (Meanwhile, I read in Christianity Today's review of Obama, he chose to meet with a bunch of evangelical leaders in a committee on abortion rights and gay marriage, and while many still disagreed with his views, they came away admitting he had put some very serious thought into it and seemed trying to take all the sides into account.)

    We're not talking indoctrination just based on particular views of society, we're tying that together with religious beliefs in which kids are steeped from early ages. It's a powerful combination that is easily abused.


    And, btw, people ARE free.
    Each person gets to vote as they want.
    That's freedom to vote one's mind.
    So yes, it already IS a free country, regardless of the church status, and I think we're fine there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #165
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fine... if they pay taxes, like corporations and other groups.

    The last thing I think we need is for churches to be spending their tithe moneys promoting political candidates based on talking points... especially religions that don't draw their conclusions from broad observable reality but from some form of "organized revelation." That's why it scares the hell out of me to imagine Palin that close to the Presidency; I might be able to trust McCain to try to think through a situation, but she's just dandy with using the office as a direct bully pulpit for her preconceived beliefs.
    I have never been to a church that tithes. To be honest, I don't think anyone should pay an income tax, so I don't have a problem with churches not doing it.


    (Meanwhile, I read in Christianity Today's review of Obama, he chose to meet with a bunch of evangelical leaders in a committee on abortion rights and gay marriage, and while many still disagreed with his views, they came away admitting he had put some very serious thought into it and seemed trying to take all the sides into account.)
    I am not surprised. He seems to be a very thoughtful believer.


    We're not talking indoctrination just based on particular views of society, we're tying that together with religious beliefs in which kids are steeped from early ages. It's a powerful combination that is easily abused.
    I don't what this means, but OK.


    And, btw, people ARE free.
    Each person gets to vote as they want.
    That's freedom to vote one's mind.
    So yes, it already IS a free country, regardless of the church status, and I think we're fine there.
    The freedom to vote is pretty far down on the list of importance. Freedom of religion and speech and several others are more important to having an overall free society.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #166
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I have never been to a church that tithes. To be honest, I don't think anyone should pay an income tax, so I don't have a problem with churches not doing it.
    lol, okay, that helps explain your stance now.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #167
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    - Adolf Hitler, 1936
    I am not at all suprised by this answer.

    It only proves my point and that is that you are "afraid" of government.
    The fact that you by default link my post with totalitarianism says quite much.

    You see everything as black and white while there are 5 types of gray between. For example the size and influence of the goverment has nothing to do with level of democracy in state.
    For example where would you place Scandinavian countries.


    What you want does not make any sense actually. You want government to regulate basic things, but you think that individual should be totally individualistic. What means not carring for the big picture in the end.
    So the only way that entire society can work in this conditions is by pumping nationalism. When you start to pump nationalism you are going directly where you don't want to be.


    On the other hand if you don't have goverment that is strong enough the business can do with you what it wants.
    Business is not social institution and it does not act like it. What means that it will even export workplaces if that makes sense from financial point of view. Or they will produce food and medications that have lower cost at the expense of quality and they have enough influence to push this as a standard.

    I can say much more about this but I think that this is enough to get my point across.

  8. #168
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am not at all suprised by this answer.

    It only proves my point and that is that you are "afraid" of government.
    The fact that you by default link my post with totalitarianism says quite much.

    You see everything as black and white while there are 5 types of gray between. For example the size and influence of the goverment has nothing to do with level of democracy in state.
    For example where would you place Scandinavian countries.


    What you want does not make any sense actually. You want government to regulate basic things, but you think that individual should be totally individualistic. What means not carring for the big picture in the end.
    So the only way that entire society can work in this conditions is by pumping nationalism. When you start to pump nationalism you are going directly where you don't want to be.


    On the other hand if you don't have goverment that is strong enough the business can do with you what it wants.
    Busines is not social institution and it does not act like it. What means that it will even export workplaces if that makes sense from financial point of view.
    Or they will produce food and medications that have lower cost at the expense of quality and they have enough influence to push this as a standard.

    I can say much more about this but I think that this is enough to get my point across.

    Considering the horrors visited upon the world by governments, how can an intelligent person not have a healthy fear of they do, or can do?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #169
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am not at all suprised by this answer.

    [much typing]

    I can say much more about this but I think that this is enough to get my point across.
    Actually, in order to make me agree with your point you'll have to say much more about it, citing sources and precedent as you go, and linking your premises with your conclusions in a series of logical steps.

    That's probably more than you want to take on; it would be for me, I know. Right now, however, all I can see from your prior post is that we disagree.

  10. #170
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Considering the horrors visited upon the world by governments, how can an intelligent person not have a healthy fear of they do, or can do?
    The fear is justified, and government must be controled for sure.

    But many governmvents were quite successfull and democratic but they were
    "developed". Scandinavia is the best example.
    If you have some group why always pointing at the worst few in group.


    I see that we have cultural problem here.

    American and European view of something known as government are quite different.

    For me the government means something that is omnipresent and it regulates many things all the time. Influence on market included.
    The point of market is not that it works good, the point is that market creates enough for society to live and develope itself further.
    Market is not social goal it is just one more tool for society.

    Without good government you have corporate anarchy.What is once again something that can go in the same category as government gone bad.

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