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  1. #101
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Man, it took 10 pages for hitler to pop up? I think that may be a record...
    I could edit to Stalin, if you'd like... or Idi Amin, or Kim Il-Sung, or Nicolae Ceaucescu, or Mussolini, or Mao Tse-Tung, or... well, you get the idea. It's not like there's any lack of symbols of the danger of empowered government.

  2. #102

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    ^ King Richard III?

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    That is exactly what is wrong with the USA.

    Everybody see government as evil that has to exist and they try to limit it.
    Insted of trying to create something that works good and does what has to be done.
    The corporations have already done this. It works to their benefit and does what they need done.

  4. #104
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    Default Running Amok

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I tend to side with the Founders in thinking that the purpose of government is to secure the borders, establish a currency, regulate international trade, and operate a criminal justice system. Asking anything more of government is asking government to perform functions for which it is ill-equipped and ill-suited.

    As for "believing the power of the government to do good," I am skeptical that such a power even exists, much less being permitted to function.

    EDIT: And I'm not so certain about the currency.
    I am always surprised at this paranoid view of government.

    And then I remember that paranoia is psychological preparation to attack. And I start to run cold.

    And I notice two tendencies - one for engagement and one for isolation. And it is paranoia that feeds the Isolationism.

    And it is the paranoia of the isolated individual - and it is radical individualism that marks this culture.

    And paranoia is the natural feeling of the isolated individual and paranoia feeds individualism. So it is a self perpetuating loop.

    But where does the paranoia of the isolated individual come from?

    It comes from the Doctrine of Individual Salvation. And is reinforced by the Predestination of the Elect.

    And luckily it is also accompanied by the Doctrine that wealth is a sign that you are predestined to be one of the Elect.

    And the Founders were profoundly influenced by these two Doctrines - they were part of the air they breathed.

    So you are torn between reaching out around the world for its riches as a sign of salvation, and your intense paranoia to preserve your individualism.

    My government recognises this and tries to encourage your engagement and discourage your isolationism.

    We do though feel like a mahout - but a very small mahout - in fact a mouse mahout - driving a very large elephant that runs amok every now than then.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am always surprised at this paranoid view of government.

    And then I remember that paranoia is psychological preparation to attack. And I start to run cold.

    And I notice two tendencies - one for engagement and one for isolation. And it is paranoia that feeds the Isolationism.

    And it is the paranoia of the isolated individual - and it is radical individualism that marks this culture.

    And paranoia is the natural feeling of the isolated individual and paranoia feeds individualism. So it is a self perpetuating loop.

    But where does the paranoia of the isolated individual come from?

    It comes from the Doctrine of Individual Salvation. And is reinforced by the Predestination of the Elect.

    And luckily it is also accompanied by the Doctrine that wealth is a sign that you are predestined to be one of the Elect.

    And the Founders were profoundly influenced by these two Doctrines - they were part of the air they breathed.

    So you are torn between reaching out around the world for its riches as a sign of salvation, and your intense paranoia to preserve your individualism.

    My government recognises this and tries to encourage your engagement and discourage your isolationism.

    We do though feel like a mahout - but a very small mahout - in fact a mouse mahout - driving a very large elephant that runs amok every now than then.
    This is all awful. The only freedom you can have is individual freedom. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT paranoid to want to preserve your individualism. That is complete and total nonsense.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #106
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Individual freedom is good and I appreciate it. I also value caring for one's fellow man and think there is validity to what Victor is saying here (I'm amazed I understood it). I don't have difficulty understanding why people want to operate in their own self-interest. I do not entirely understand how social/economic Darwinism became and remains a near-fifth Gospel.

    I also think that a lot of conservative thought does not consider American aristocracy to be what it is or seem bothered that it has so much control over government. Corporate welfare is not seen as a problem, but helping the needy is a horrible wrong. I do not understand why the Religious Right seems just fine with this when there is so much in the Bible about caring for the widow, the orphan, the alien, the land, and not exploiting the poor and about the not-infrequent wickedness of the rich.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    This is all awful. The only freedom you can have is individual freedom. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT paranoid to want to preserve your individualism. That is complete and total nonsense.
    So here the elephant runs amok once again. We will try and soothe you. We will speak softly and gently to you. Ah yes, we will feed you sugar cane - ah, I can see a glint in your eye - you do have a sweet tusk.

    I have been told an elephant is never more an elephant than when they are alone. But we would like to introduce you to society.

    But first we need to get inside that big grey head of yours. We need to explain to you that Salvation is found in Community. You can go to Hell on your own, but you can only enter Heaven holding hands, or in your case, trunks - or perhaps trunks and tails.

    You might remember we are all the Body of Christ - if you hurt your trunk, all of you hurts. Each part feels every other part. And each part looks after every other part.

    And it needs to be stated very clearly that the Doctrine of Individual Salvation is a heresy. And to remember the words of Jesus, "Love your neighbour as yourself".

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Individual freedom is good and I appreciate it. I also value caring for one's fellow man and think there is validity to what Victor is saying here (I'm amazed I understood it). I don't have difficulty understanding why people want to operate in their own self-interest. I do not entirely understand how social/economic Darwinism became and remains a near-fifth Gospel.
    This is crap. There is nothing socially or economically Darwinian about freedom. Never has been, never will be. Caring for your fellow man can only happen voluntarily. There is no such thing as charity with other people's money and time.

    I also think that a lot of conservative thought does not consider American aristocracy to be what it is or seem bothered that it has so much control over government. Corporate welfare is not seen as a problem, but helping the needy is a horrible wrong. I do not understand why the Religious Right seems just fine with this when there is so much in the Bible about caring for the widow, the orphan, the alien, the land, and not exploiting the poor and about the not-infrequent wickedness of the rich.
    I think you're wrong on that point, too (if you are including libertarians and small-government conservatives in this grouping). Everyone knows corporate welfare is wrong. It's one of the most despised things that the government does. Why does it still happen? The government is so powerful that corporations spend billions a year lobbying, trying to get in good with them, getting them to write friendly regulations, etc.

    Also, there is nothing inherently wicked about being rich, and anyone who says otherwise has hatred and envy in their hearts. Not very Judeo-Christian traits, if you ask me.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So here the elephant runs amok once again. We will try and soothe you. We will speak softly and gently to you. Ah yes, we will feed you sugar cane - ah, I can see a glint in your eye - you do have a sweet tusk.

    I have been told an elephant is never more an elephant than when they are alone. But we would like to introduce you to society.

    But first we need to get inside that big grey head of yours. We need to explain to you that Salvation is found in Community. You can go to Hell on your own, but you can only enter Heaven holding hands, or in your case, trunks - or perhaps trunks and tails.

    You might remember we are all the Body of Christ - if you hurt your trunk, all of you hurts. Each part feels every other part. And each part looks after every other part.

    And it needs to be stated very clearly that the Doctrine of Individual Salvation is a heresy. And to remember the words of Jesus, "Love your neighbour as yourself".
    Forcing someone else to do something against their will is asserting God-like authority. It's not humble, and it's certainly not loving.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I also think that a lot of conservative thought does not consider American aristocracy to be what it is or seem bothered that it has so much control over government. Corporate welfare is not seen as a problem, but helping the needy is a horrible wrong. I do not understand why the Religious Right seems just fine with this when there is so much in the Bible about caring for the widow, the orphan, the alien, the land, and not exploiting the poor and about the not-infrequent wickedness of the rich.
    Quite right.

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