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  1. #11
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Lightning strikes are accidents of nature. Voter fraud is willful lawbreaking. Surely, we can do sometime about the latter.
    Well, even in Philadelphia, how many times have democrats gained votes (actual votes) from people who don't exist?

    Not to mention the fact that fraud in Philadephia doesn't mean there is fraud going on anywhere else, and doesn't mean it's the fault of ACORN's efforts.

    Gee, I don't know; maybe one is a legitimate policy point, and the other is a crime? We're not talking about a campaign providing a van to get poor voters to the polls on time; we're talking about a direct payment or gift of a valuable in exchange for voting or registering to vote.
    Yeah, but his point is that the fact that one is considered legitimate while the other is labeled a crime is irrelevant, because it's the same exact thing going on: giving people what they want in order to get them to vote for you.

  2. #12
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Well, even in Philadelphia, how many times have democrats gained votes (actual votes) from people who don't exist?

    Not to mention the fact that fraud in Philadephia doesn't mean there is fraud going on anywhere else, and doesn't mean it's the fault of ACORN's efforts.
    Many, many times. I mean, it's a pretty solidly Democratic city, but we had a couple of very close races for mayor in the late-1990s and early-2000s, and there were several instances of union members pressuring people to vote Democratic, and a few instances of violence, as well. You think that voter fraud would happen in Philadelphia, but not in any other major American city? That seems incredibly naive. Disingenuously so. I haven't read everything about the ACORN situation, but I am talking about the principle of the matter.


    Yeah, but his point is that the fact that one is considered legitimate while the other is labeled a crime is irrelevant, because it's the same exact thing going on: giving people what they want in order to get them to vote for you.
    I don't think it is. If you truly believe that, then either A) democracy is completely useless, since it is predicated upon nothing but bribery and demagoguery; or B) voter fraud is fine, and so is bribery of the reverse sort (i.e., promising government favors in exchange for money or votes). I doubt either of you actually believes that.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #13
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Agreed. But surely stopping 1000 people from voting fraudulently is not worth stopping 10,000 legitimate voters from voting? That's what they're trying to do. (the lightning was talking about the lack of actual voter fraud in the country, btw, just a statistical comparison)
    How do we define "legitimate voters?" Someone who hasn't registered or who has given false or seriously incorrect information when registering wouldn't BE a "legitimate voter." We need to have some rules in place for ensuring our elections are both free and legitimate. Remember, the United States of America is a republic, not a democracy. We have a rule of law, not of the majority.


    Yeah I know. I just find it ironic as hell is all. Maybe they should keep it legal, by promising to pass a law that anyone without a home can receive a voucher for one pack of cigarettes and one bottle of run? Still sounds less costly in the long run. They'd probably not bother voting and still cash in the vouchers, though. Back to the drawing board I guess.
    What? Are you actually suggesting making that type of behavior legal, or am I missing something here?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There have been numerous cases of actual voter fraud. I live in Philadelphia, and we have a sordid history of illegal and/or nonexistent voters. This issue is clearly partisan, though. Democrats love to get fraudulent votes and voters; Republicans love to toss out votes and/or make it more difficult to vote.

    My own view is that it SHOULD be somewhat difficult to vote, but that we also need to investigate actual voter suppression (i.e., intimidating people at the polls, which does happen) and fraud much more vigorously. It's disgusting that people who are not registered to vote sometimes do, and that people pick up homeless people and drug addicts and pay them with money or cigarettes to vote a certain way. I think showing some form of ID is probably a good idea, unless it is demonstrable that you can't get one.
    This one is actually a personal one for me. Because it happens to me almost every year. It is really easy to vote in the primaries, but has always been an ordeal to vote in the actual elections.

    I always found it suspicious when things happened. The most common thing is that happened to me is the switching of polling places.

    There would be a poling place right next to me, and it would be the one I went to for the primary. It would also be the one designated for where I live according to my driver's license. But when I get there, they claim that I'm supposed to vote somewhere across town (where I've never lived in my life)--but here is the rub, they piss me off enough that I actually go to the other place to vote-HA!.

    I think they do it by foreign sounding name. The people being pushed away are invariably have names that aren't anglo-saxon names.

    If it happens this year, I may even offer to drive people to where they need to go.

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  5. #15
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    Where is that happening, ygolo?
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  6. #16

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    I've lived in places in Virgina, and California. Only one major election while I was in Virginia.

    It doesn't make sense, since California is not really a swing state. But the fact that it happens is undeniable (worst was in the re-call election for Governor, people were being turned away in droves).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #17
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Many, many times. I mean, it's a pretty solidly Democratic city, but we had a couple of very close races for mayor in the late-1990s and early-2000s, and there were several instances of union members pressuring people to vote Democratic, and a few instances of violence, as well. You think that voter fraud would happen in Philadelphia, but not in any other major American city?
    Again, I think you're making the issue overbroad. We're talking about a specific kind of voter fraud where there IS NO ACTUAL FRAUD. You're talking about union pressure and violence and other shit. Who's being disingenuous now?

    In addition, I didn't say it wouldn't happen in a major other city, but there's no reason to believe it actually did. You can't assume that because voter fraud is happening in some city in the US that it's occurring in all cities.

    Disingenuously so. I haven't read everything about the ACORN situation, but I am talking about the principle of the matter.
    Then try a little harder to stay focused on the topic, and leave the insults out, please, and I will too.

    I don't think it is. If you truly believe that, then either A) democracy is completely useless, since it is predicated upon nothing but bribery and demagoguery; or B) voter fraud is fine, and so is bribery of the reverse sort (i.e., promising government favors in exchange for money or votes). I doubt either of you actually believes that.
    Why would democracy be useless if it's predicated upon bribery? Who's to say what the proper "use" of democracy is? Definitely not you.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    This article seems relevant: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us...=1&oref=slogin

    The six swing states seem to be in violation of federal law in two ways. Michigan and Colorado are removing voters from the rolls within 90 days of a federal election, which is not allowed except when voters die, notify the authorities that they have moved out of state, or have been declared unfit to vote....In addition to the six swing states, three more states appear to be violating federal law. Alabama and Georgia seem to be improperly using Social Security information to screen registration applications from new voters. And Louisiana appears to have removed thousands of voters after the federal deadline for taking such action.

  9. #19
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Again, I think you're making the issue overbroad. We're talking about a specific kind of voter fraud where there IS NO ACTUAL FRAUD. You're talking about union pressure and violence and other shit. Who's being disingenuous now?
    You are. I did mention voter fraud. Do you want a concrete example? Gladly.

    Philadelphia Identified As No. 1 Election Fraud 'Hot Spot' In America, Says American Center for Voting Rights Legislative Fund

    Voter suppression is also a major problem. What is wrong with mentioning both when we're discussing voter fraud?


    In addition, I didn't say it wouldn't happen in a major other city, but there's no reason to believe it actually did. You can't assume that because voter fraud is happening in some city in the US that it's occurring in all cities.
    I mentioned my hometown, which has been somewhat notorious in this regard. Wouldn't it be HIGHLY unusual if it were happening in one major city, but no others? I know Philadelphia's reputation is bad, but Milwaukee was another famous example. Here is a link:

    JS Online: Inquiry finds evidence of fraud in election


    Then try a little harder to stay focused on the topic, and leave the insults out, please, and I will too.
    The principle is the important thing, and what was being argued. I wasn't trying to be insulting, but it did seem disingenuous. Don't take a schoolmarm tone with me.


    Why would democracy be useless if it's predicated upon bribery? Who's to say what the proper "use" of democracy is? Definitely not you.
    Actually, I can say whatever I like, and I can say with some authority that democracy in the United States is not supposed to be predicated upon bribery. In fact, I can say with absolute authority that the United States is a republic (not a democracy), and that we should and do have laws in place to restrict illegal voting. ACORN's problems seem to be on the side of voter registration fraud, but a lack of rigorous oversight would allow illegal voters to have their votes counted (look at the Milwaukee situation). That should be tackled.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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