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  1. #81
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Dumping toxic waste in my drinking water is fairly efficient, and economical to boot.

    Efficient is not always the best of goals.
    No, it's not efficient. And as far as I know, that's been illegal as long as we've known it to be harmful. It's not a good example. Actually, it's really bad, emotionally manipulative example.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #82
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Exactamundo! We had to -make- it inefficient to keep it closer to "right".
    Right? Pfft. If you had said 'rights', you would have been closer to the mark, specifically, property rights. Laws have evolved as we've found better, more efficient ways to handle externalities.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #83
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's not when you get sued out of existence for doing it.
    I think the point was that what is expeditious in the short term isn't always so in the long term, versus "Would it be a good idea to make it known that you are dumping something illegally in a 'first world' environment ? "
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  4. #84
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    How did we "have to make" it that? To the best of my knowledge, it's always been legal to sue for torts against property. I am talking about property owners being able to sue over pollution here, not the EPA or any government organization.
    Then the question is if the public courts are effective at;

    1) Stopping companies from doing it (negative incentive)
    2) Cost efficient
    3) Give equal rights to the parties involved (since courts have the power of force, they are inherently above the free market).

    You require the legal framework in order to balance the pollution effects. There may be more efficient ways of doing it (considering that rights, in this case, may not optimized through the existing court system.) It does indeed "have to make" it that way, one way or another.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You require the legal framework in order to balance the pollution effects. There may be more efficient ways of doing it (considering that rights, in this case, may not optimized through the existing court system.) It does indeed "have to make" it that way, one way or another.
    You have to recognize property rights, because that's part of the basis for the entire system. If you stop recognizing those rights, you might as well just trash the whole thing.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #86
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You have to recognize property rights, because that's part of the basis for the entire system. If you stop recognizing those rights, you might as well just trash the whole thing.
    Of course. The question is in how to enforce it. By giving the policing to the small guys, larger guys can take advantage of the system. It also then requires a robust legal system, which can be parasitic in nature, and resource draining across the board. (And so forth...)

  7. #87
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Of course. The question is in how to enforce it. By giving the policing to the small guys, larger guys can take advantage of the system. It also then requires a robust legal system, which can be parasitic in nature, and resource draining across the board. (And so forth...)
    I think we're actually doing a pretty good job of that, relatively speaking, not that there isn't room for improvement.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #88
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, it's not efficient. And as far as I know, that's been illegal as long as we've known it to be harmful. It's not a good example. Actually, it's really bad, emotionally manipulative example.
    To all who have replied on this:

    Fine, maybe drinking water is a bad example, I didn't realize you couldn't extrapolate that I meant all such corporate shenannigans.

    That aside: Our current administration has shoved shit through congress that lowers the cap on damages that you can sue a corporation for in a number of situations like this.

    This, I would say, is lowering that inefficiency I spoke of.

    IF the cost of the lawsuits, penalties, projected loss of sales due to public outrage, etc. is LOWER than the cost of proper disposal of waste...which one are they going to pick? "Do the right thing", or "do the cheap thing"?

    Having "a law against it" is hardly the whole picture.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  9. #89
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    To all who have replied on this:

    Fine, maybe drinking water is a bad example, I didn't realize you couldn't extrapolate that I meant all such corporate shenannigans.

    That aside: Our current administration has shoved shit through congress that lowers the cap on damages that you can sue a corporation for in a number of situations like this.

    This, I would say, is lowering that inefficiency I spoke of.

    IF the cost of the lawsuits, penalties, projected loss of sales due to public outrage, etc. is LOWER than the cost of proper disposal of waste...which one are they going to pick? "Do the right thing", or "do the cheap thing"?

    Having "a law against it" is hardly the whole picture.
    There shouldn't be a cap on compensatory damages in lawsuits. I think the caps were going to be on punitive damages. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #90
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    To all who have replied on this:

    Fine, maybe drinking water is a bad example, I didn't realize you couldn't extrapolate that I meant all such corporate shenannigans.
    Couldn't what? You're making a completely different argument. I thought we were talking about taxing the hell out of companies because it's evil when they profit. Do you really think profit is criminal? That's nuts if you do.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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