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  1. #61
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Redblooded. But also on the lower end of the economic scale. I hesitate whenever anyone utters a "we" that includes both myself and the oil companies, because frankly, I don't think they consider me part of "we" at all. I fully believe their profits would increase far more than my savings would.
    American oil companies would love to make and sell gasoline cheaper than they do now, if they are getting it from the Middle East for next to nothing. Being able to ignore OPEC is an American oilman's wet dream.


    If Europe and Asia had fallen, we'd have been at the mercy of the Axis, it would only have been a matter of time. It's hard to think of tens of millions of deaths as being "an ounce of prevention", but I think the "pound of cure" had the Axis solidified their holdings would have been beyond insane.

    I said Kosovo as questionable because this is also an ounce of prevention situation...by stomping on that spark, we likely prevented a wildfire that could have disrupted Europe, which we are too closely linked to for it not to affect us negatively. Also, it would be difficult to underfund against/underestimate the Serbian military, so it's not really "well managed" as much as "not applicable for failure".

    Fair enough, but Bush and Co. used the same rhetoric in the run-up to invading Iraq. "Prevention," "destabilizing the area," "he already gassed his own people," et al. I am a noninterventionist at heart.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #62
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    American oil companies would love to make and sell gasoline cheaper than they do now, if they are getting it from the Middle East for next to nothing. Being able to ignore OPEC is an American oilman's wet dream.
    I don't think he's jizzing over how much it will help the American People.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Fair enough, but Bush and Co. used the same rhetoric in the run-up to invading Iraq. "Prevention," "destabilizing the area," "he already gassed his own people," et al. I am a noninterventionist at heart.
    Which is why he said it. It wasn't true and they obviously knew it. But they knew it would strike a chord. Which is why I got really, really suspicious when he started talking about the economic bail-out in the same sort of way. "Don't read it, sign it, sign it now or we'll all die!" Thanks, but I've seen what he does with the blank checks and carte blanche that result from buying into his emergencies.

    Also, out of curiosity, what political affiliation do you claim? Don't answer if you don't want...I just can't tell from your posts, you favor reason and sanity too much. I'm registered independant but I always seem to vote democratic or (occasionally) libertarian.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  3. #63
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    I don't think he's jizzing over how much it will help the American People.
    It's not his job to help people out. It's his job to provide gasoline for people to buy.


    Which is why he said it. It wasn't true and they obviously knew it. But they knew it would strike a chord. Which is why I got really, really suspicious when he started talking about the economic bail-out in the same sort of way. "Don't read it, sign it, sign it now or we'll all die!" Thanks, but I've seen what he does with the blank checks and carte blanche that result from buying into his emergencies.
    I think it's usually not true, and the question of whether or not to deploy troops is as much (or more) political and economic as it is geopolitical and defense-oriented.


    Also, out of curiosity, what political affiliation do you claim? Don't answer if you don't want...I just can't tell from your posts, you favor reason and sanity too much. I'm registered independant but I always seem to vote democratic or (occasionally) libertarian.
    I am a committed libertarian/classical liberal, but I am not a big fan of the LP. I pick and choose candidates to support (but I tend only to vote every 4 years). I want a pretty damn small government, especially the federal government, but I am not an anarcho-capitalist or conspiracy/militia type.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #64
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's not his job to help people out. It's his job to provide gasoline for people to buy.
    With as much impact as the availability and price of gasoline has on the economy, I'm in favor of it being treated like a utility. Supply and demand is a model that does not really apply to gasoline anymore, IMO. It will once electric/hydro/ethanol/whatever cars can compete with gasoline engines. But for now, I really have no choice...so it's not really "demand", as such, and "free market competition" is a joke in that industry. They raise the price when oil -might- rise...and leave it high when the price of oil drops again. What am I going to do...not go to work for a week, until they drop the price? Not really an option given how often they do this.

    I do think government should keep its nose out of most things, except where companies are harming the public. If government stays out 100%, what incentive do the corporations have exactly to realize extra savings by dumping their waste in my drinking water?

    Meh, thread derail threat, moving on.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I think it's usually not true, and the question of whether or not to deploy troops is as much (or more) political and economic as it is geopolitical and defense-oriented.
    Economic concerns bleed into defense at this point I think. I'm not advocating slaughtering a million people to make a few bucks. But I am advocating using our military to protect ourselves from economic destruction. Thus I say Kosovo was quite appropriate, as well as being the "right" thing to do (those Serbs were being some serious bastards). Also think we should be bitchslapping Sudan about now, but the question I always run into with that is, how, exactly? Nasty tangle, that.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  5. #65
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I thought Obama really seemed like an INTJ last night, particularly when negative ads came up... I laughed out loud when he made the comment about how issues were more important than either of the candidates' hurt feelings. It seemed VERY much like something that my INTJ friend would say (he is always in kind of a political struggle with his principal, who used to be my principal--and the principal is really feelings-oriented, and the INTJ will just have none of that BS).
    Oh yeah, definitely. I don't know where the ENFJ talk came from because I've always thought INTJ. When he debates you can see that he's working things out and is totally unemotional.

    McCain looked like a stuffed sausage that needed to take a dump.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    I think McCain should stop looking like a smug, smirky jackass.
    One word. Metamucil.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Redblooded. But also on the lower end of the economic scale. I hesitate whenever anyone utters a "we" that includes both myself and the oil companies, because frankly, I don't think they consider me part of "we" at all. I fully believe their profits would increase far more than my savings would.
    This price of oil affects the price of every good you purchase.

    It's so annoying when people look at oil companies as the 'enemy', that any profit they make is wrong or bad. Oil companies have a relatively low profit margin. The lower their profit margin gets, the less attractive they are to investors.

    Oil companies pay far more in taxes than they make in profit.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #67
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how you can call $40,000,000,000 in one year a low profit margin, even if they're paying 50 in taxes. I also seriously doubt their profitability is in any danger any time soon, nor will they lack for investors unless nobody has any money. I don't see the oil companies as the enemy. I see the people currently in power over them, today, as being -my- enemy, and I shed no tears over them paying fifty billion when they keep forty billion. My problem is they play dirty pool, constantly. But this is probably worthy of another topic.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  8. #68
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    I'm not sure how you can call $40,000,000,000 in one year a low profit margin.
    Do you know what profit margin is?

    I don't shed a tear for them either. This isn't about emotions or what you think is 'right'. This is about what makes our economy run.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    A reference to the Alex Jones libertarian wing, who never met a conspiracy theory they didn't like. I think it's this crowd that is holding Libertarians back.
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And Ron Paul is a Republican who made extra-careful not to use the word "libertarian" during his campaign. He's by far the most libertarian mainstream primary candidate, but he isn't a traditional libertarian.
    Actually I think it's the Alex Jones Libertarian wing that's holding the conspriacy theorists back, not the other way round.

  10. #70
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    I never understood why McCain did not change his party affiliation to Independent. His maverick views and ideation would have fit in far better than attempting to appeal to the far right and Chrisitian Conservatives. McCain has been fighting several battles even before the general election and has become lost on his attempt to fit in. It's too bad that we did not get a chance to truly hear his views from his point and not the GOP's point. As for Senator Obama he is not out of the water yet. No one should underestimate the Bradley/Wilder Effect.

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