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View Poll Results: Is McCain Being Suckered by Obama?

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11. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, McCain is calling Obama's bluff, Obama thought he'd back down.

    1 9.09%
  • Yes, McCain is falling right into the pungi pit Obama dug for him.

    10 90.91%
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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    McCain's negative ads are only hurting him, according to the polls. Doesn't shock me since all but the more dedicated Republicans I know find the tone of his ads to be a turn off.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Obama will probably return fire with mention of McCain's involvement in the Keating Five. The two of them deserve each other.
    We'll see.

    I haven't watched any debates nor bothered with much of this aside from weekly news magazines, but a friend of mine likes to drink wine and watch this stuff on TV, so we'll go over tonight and keep her company.

    (Free wine, you know! She'd better have cheese too.)

    My instinctive assess is similar to ptg's.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    McCain's negative ads are only hurting him, according to the polls. Doesn't shock me since all but the more dedicated Republicans I know find the tone of his ads to be a turn off.
    It is difficult to trust people's own opinion of their rationalizations. I'm certain it played a part, but it might have been unrelated to the attacks themselves, and simply not offering a "solution" to the economic crisis as compared to Obama.

    But that's why this trap is so dangerous. Obama could just go "Do you mind if we deal with the issues instead of throw mud?" if the above is true. Or, he could address the attacks themselves - "You keep making this personal, but... <evidence of no real association>", or even rising above "I could bring up your Keating issues, but I'd rather not get dragged into meaningless issues".

    It depends on what the root issue is. I suspect that Obama will hammer McCain on the economy, for example, and repeat his "plan for the future", and instead of addressing the attacks head on, simply dismiss it as not focusing on the issues. (That's my view of the psychology behind the dropping polls, anyway - his staff might not agree.)

  4. #14
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    We'll see.

    I haven't watched any debates nor bothered with much of this aside from weekly news magazines, but a friend of mine likes to drink wine and watch this stuff on TV, so we'll go over tonight and keep her company.

    (Free wine, you know! She'd better have cheese too.)

    My instinctive assess is similar to ptg's.
    I will be doing the same. My friend Geoff is going to supply the wine and cheese.

    ptGatsby for President, I say !
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Obama Flack Accidentally Sends Out Pre-Debate Talking Points

    October 15, 2008 11:17 AM

    "Reminder: These are for staff only and not for distribution," warns the email.

    And then, the spin, accidentally sent to reporters this morning.

    "* This is John McCains last chance to turn this race around and somehow convince the American people that his erratic response to this economic crisis doesnt disqualify him from being President.

    "* Just this weekend the weekend, John McCain vowed to 'whip Obamas you-know-what' at the debate, and hes indicated that hell be bringing up Bill Ayers to try to distract voters.

    "* So we know that Senator McCain will come ready to attack Barack Obama and bring his dishonorable campaign tactics to the debate stage.

    "Obama continues to lead on the economic crisis with a rescue plan for Main Street.

    "Over the course of the campaign, Barack Obama has laid out a set of policies that will grow our middle class and strengthen our economy.

    "But he knows we face an immediate economic emergency that requires urgent action on top of the plans hes already laid out to help workers and families and communities struggling right now.

    "Thats why Barack Obama is introducing a comprehensive four-part Rescue Plan for the Middle Class to immediately to stabilize our financial system, provide relief to families and communities, and help struggling homeowners.

    "This is a plan that can and should be implemented immediately.

    "Obama has shown steady leadership during this crisis and offered concrete solutions to move the country forward and his Rescue Plan for the Middle Class builds on the plans to strengthen the economy and rebuild the middle class that hes laid out over the course of this campaign.

    "Already in this campaign, hes unveiled plans to give 95 percent of workers and their families a tax cut, eliminate income taxes for seniors making under $50,000, bring down the cost of health care for families and businesses; and create millions of new jobs by investing in the renewable energy sources.

    "John McCain has been erratic and unsteady since this crisis began staggering from position to position and trying to change the subject away from the economy by launching false character attacks."
    ANOTHER TRAP!!!!!

    Or not?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Here is a good assessment of what McCain should do in the next three weeks:

    Hit & Run > McCain-Obama III: The Naumachia in New York - Reason Magazine
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #17
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    I hate this entire election. There is no candidate that I can support, or even vote for in good conscience. I strongly suspect at this point that it doesn't matter who wins. Either way, taxes are going up and promises will not be kept.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  8. #18
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    I hate this entire election. There is no candidate that I can support, or even vote for in good conscience. I strongly suspect at this point that it doesn't matter who wins. Either way, taxes are going up and promises will not be kept.
    I won't like it, but I am thinking that I will vote for Bob Barr. I'd write in Ron Paul, but I already voted for him/against McCain once, and I thought it was a little prickish of him to support Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate, over Barr. Barr even offered to let Paul be his VP candidate, and Wayne Allyn Root said he would step aside for him.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #19
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    But that's why this trap is so dangerous. Obama could just go "Do you mind if we deal with the issues instead of throw mud?" if the above is true. Or, he could address the attacks themselves - "You keep making this personal, but... <evidence of no real association>", or even rising above "I could bring up your Keating issues, but I'd rather not get dragged into meaningless issues".
    Well, this is exactly what Obama did in the debate last night. John McCain brought up Ayers and ACORN, and Obama refuted those and moved on--didn't mention Keating at all. I thought it was well played. Certainly this is a political game, and Obama is winning.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Well, this is exactly what Obama did in the debate last night. John McCain brought up Ayers and ACORN, and Obama refuted those and moved on--didn't mention Keating at all.
    Yup. I wanted to note that for Oberon. Keating was never mentioned. *cough*

    And McCain chewed on that Ayers thing like an old bone. (When he wasn't talking about the austistic children, getting his feelings hurt from someone's comments responding to his attack ads, talking about how great veterans are, or sharing a bed with Joe the Plumber who had come to fix the sink, that is.)

    I thought it was well played. Certainly this is a political game, and Obama is winning.
    His favorability rating went up a bit, McCain's dropped a bit. McCain has solidified the people who already were voting for him but is losing the rest slowly, it seems.

    But you are right. Regardless of whether one thinks Obama is sincere or just playing the game, he plays it very very well -- he's solid in the sense that Pete Sampras or Tiger Woods is solid. He's such a machine, you can't count on him screwing up. You can't even assume you're going to rattle him. I wouldn't be sure how to best him.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Here is a good assessment of what McCain should do in the next three weeks:

    Hit & Run > McCain-Obama III: The Naumachia in New York - Reason Magazine
    That actually seemed a good general strategy.

    While I'm torn over the abortion thing and in many ways Obama seems unflappable, yes, I bet if McCain had had the cajones to really delve deeply into the gruesome details of abortion and whatever else and paint him as a real monster (just an all-out character assassination) on the air, there would be the possibility of Obama losing his game face and then it would be interesting to see what would come out. (Obama keeps such tight measure on his emotional content / behavior, when he finally loses control briefly it could be very ugly.)

    But it would also paint McCain as an ass to many people.

    So it would have been a dangerous move. Yet in his case, he might have benefited from it, he has little left to lose.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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