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  1. #21
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    You're Canadian? Our friends to the north who keep getting dragged into our messes? Sigh.

    Yes. The service. As i mentioned, I am accustomed to accountability and I certainly didn't get that.

    I'd belonged to Norwest Bank before it even became Norwest - twenty-some years so when they sold out to Wells Fargo I just went along for the ride. But suddenly I was a stranger in my old bank. Very frustrating.

    My husband walked out the day he went in for a loan and they handed him a mass of forms. Our financial reputation was stellar and it had taken years to develop. Overnight we lost it.

    My credit rating took a dive thanks to the bank's error and I don't know how long it will take to renew it. I've had no cooperation from these fine corporate folks in helping me with this. Just form letters.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    You're Canadian? Our friends to the north who keep getting dragged into our messes? Sigh.
    Hah hah... well, yah, I suppose we do In that case, I blame you guys for my current portfolio

    My credit rating took a dive thanks to the bank's error and I don't know how long it will take to renew it. I've had no cooperation from these fine corporate folks in helping me with this. Just form letters.
    That's quite unacceptable. Although I know the forms is a requirement now, unfortunately, as a product of stricter accounts standards (yah, ironic that, eh?) and counter-terrorism/money laundering.

    The credit rating thing is something I wouldn't accept, but to get anything done in this climate, you'll have to play hardball, and even that probably won't matter. The problem with the banks being the way they are is that the individuals in the banks feel very threatened and tend to just stop caring!

    I don't really understand the issue, I suppose. Canada has such a different banking system that I have never had issues like this. And the few times I did have any issues, it was relatively easy to solve... The complaints I get from the states is rather confusing to me, heh.

  3. #23
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Anja, I find myself in the same boat as you, although with less money currently saved up. I'm still learning, but so far there are some trends that my INFP mind has picked up on. Keep in mind I'm still processing information - consider this my 'rough draft' gut feeling.

    First, the threat of hyperinflation is real. It won't happen tomorrow, but figure in 2 or 3 years we can expect it. Maybe less, not likely more. So finding ways to guard against inflation may be just as important, if not moreso, than finding 'good investments'. So what are the best ways to protect against inflation?

    Gold is a good, safe bet. Problem is the gold market is acting strange, with quality gold being in demand, hard to find, yet being strangely undervalued in relative terms. The terminology is still foreign to me, but it appears finding quality certificates, or getting your hands on the actual gold, is really difficult, while it's easy to find certificates where you agree to let the bank hold onto the gold. Maybe I'm off here, but I just don't get warm fuzzies from all that... it's going to take alot more research before I'd be brave enough to enter the market. I mean, what is keeping the banks from selling more certificates than they have gold? * genuine question *

    Silver is treated as an industrial metal... so as production hurts so will its value. It's hard for me to get a feel on future value of silver.

    I've also considered exchanging some dollars for the Chinese Yuan. I have little doubt that China's economy will grow stronger while the U.S. will grow weaker. I haven't learned how to best take 'advantage' of that yet, though.

    Damn, this post is growing too long. I'll share more thoughts later if someone doesn't convince me I'm way off base.

  4. #24
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    China's growing stronger? HAH! That's a funny one. The Chinese are probably the single-biggest dependent country on the US doing well. If we go down, they're smashed.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  5. #25
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    Anja, it's definitely not okay to for them to lie to the public. Just don't fall into it

    And I'm Canadian too!

    PtGatsbys:

    Gold value in 1910. $20.67/oz ... relative to dollar now.. $412.84
    Gold Value in 1960. $36.50/oz... relative to dollar now.. $248.30
    Gold Value in 2000 $272/oz... relative to dollar now $318.68
    Gold value in 2005 $513/oz.. relative to dollar now $529.41
    Gold Value in 2008 1,002.00/oz relative to dollar now $979.04

    Bottom line.. yes gold prices rise and fall, but quantity never changes.. stocks.. really risky.

    If you knew how our monetary system was set up... boy.. if anyone wants a copy of Modern Money Mechanics let me know.. I'll send it to them PDF.

    And you're right Anja, we have a "failproof" system, but if you analyze it, it was built to fail.

  6. #26
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    China's growing stronger? HAH! That's a funny one. The Chinese are probably the single-biggest dependent country on the US doing well. If we go down, they're smashed.
    I'm thinking long term. The impression I get is that China is artificially keeping the value of the Yuan low compared to the American dollar so we will export our business. Eventually, they won't need to do that anymore.

    Short term though, I agree. If the US economy crashes completely right now, China is screwed as well. This is part of the reason I'm not ready to follow through with the "buy Yuan" theory just yet.

  7. #27
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Gold is a good, safe bet. Problem is the gold market is acting strange, with quality gold being in demand, hard to find, yet being strangely undervalued in relative terms. The terminology is still foreign to me, but it appears finding quality certificates, or getting your hands on the actual gold, is really difficult, while it's easy to find certificates where you agree to let the bank hold onto the gold. Maybe I'm off here, but I just don't get warm fuzzies from all that... it's going to take alot more research before I'd be brave enough to enter the market. I mean, what is keeping the banks from selling more certificates than they have gold? * genuine question *
    A friend of mine was talking about this yesterday. He thinks there's a lot of manipulation going on, and I would agree that banks selling more certificates than they own would corroborate that behavior (it's like Short Selling, but in the gold market). Who knows though. Still smells funny.

    As for what is keeping the banks from doing that... I'd like to hear the answer to this as well, but I have a sneaky suspicion the answer is "nothing."

    edit:
    Come to think of it, a simple google search had me reading at least one article talking about big investment banks having a "short interest" in gold. I guess that answers your question--banks can short-sell gold all they want! If the raw material is hard to come by, then that tells me a lot of short-selling must be happening to keep the prices low as they are, and I think "manipulation" is an appropriate word to describe that behavior on a wide scale.
    intp | type 9w1 sp/sx/so

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I'm thinking long term. The impression I get is that China is artificially keeping the value of the Yuan low compared to the American dollar so we will export our business. Eventually, they won't need to do that anymore.

    Short term though, I agree. If the US economy crashes completely right now, China is screwed as well. This is part of the reason I'm not ready to follow through with the "buy Yuan" theory just yet.
    They won't? Oh, they WILL. Know why? Because they're so technologically behind that once their workers start demanding higher standards of living and the world starts demanding that they don't throw so much pollution into the air that we can read it from California, and "the China price" gets eroded from within, China will just become a sad excuse for American capitalism.

    Right now, China is growing. America and Japan are far, FAR ahead of it still, and always will be. America had its OMFG BOOM period, so did Japan, as did all of the other first-world economies.

    Just because China is in the midst of one now doesn't mean it's suddenly going to become an economic superpower when its only claim to world competition means short-changing the people within its own borders.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tENnisFJ View Post
    Bottom line.. yes gold prices rise and fall, but quantity never changes.. stocks.. really risky.
    Real returns recent (relatively flat from ~1800dreds to the end of the Bretton Woods/1933 gold act)



    It depends on your view of risky.

    Considering the rate of return, I would consider gold a lot riskier. Or rather, the risk/reward is not so good.
    Last edited by ptgatsby; 06-08-2009 at 09:58 PM.

  10. #30
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    So what to make of these folks who say everythings's gonna be just fine and keep your money in?

    Is it fair to view them as people who are protecting their own investments by giving that advice?
    If you believe that the past is the best indicator of the future, then the best course would be to keep your money where it is. If you think this time is going to be much different, then you'd want to put your money somewhere else (although I'd choose real estate over gold myself). Ultimately the future is uncertain, and we don't know. Either one group is overreacting or another group is underreacting.
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