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  1. #41
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Indigenous people everywhere led intuitive lives quite successfully.
    Indigenous people everywhere were, and are, intuitively brutal to women and children and each other.

    Good God, we lived for 200,000 years before the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948.

    And life was short, nasty and brutish.

  2. #42
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I find replys in this thread quite narrow minded because no one proposed anything really new. This is not problem just on this forum it is a global problem and very serious problem.

    My vote goes to hibrid of capitalism and socialism with ratio 1:2. But there must be a lot of critical thinking, strong imperative on freedom of speech and there must be private property.
    Plus there has to be a strong scientific background.


    This probably sounds like a fairy-tale but not only that this is what I am thinking but this is also the only way that can create good outcome in the future toward my opinion.


    I think that modern capitalism has created many dangerous illusion. The most dangerous one is that people started to think like "When will it be done?" of "How much will it cost?" but the real question is "Can it be done at all and how stabile will it be on the long run?"

    Capitalism as we know it was very good system 130 years ago. But in the last 130 years many things have changed so we are looking at totally different situation right now.

    I could say many things about this kind of things but for now I will leave it at question:


    Does this planet really has enough resources for us to continue the game?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Indigenous people everywhere were, and are, intuitively brutal to women and children and each other.
    There are plenty of indigenous tribes that don't harm one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Good God, we lived for 200,000 years before the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948.

    And life was short, nasty and brutish.
    Plenty of elders, too.
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    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Does this planet really has enough resources for us to continue the game?
    I agree with you. The fundamental problem with capitalism is that it consumes exponentially more resources, and the mentality is still that "capital" are physical resources.

    Of course, it isn't "capitalism" and its associated theories that are the issue. It's the social concept of capital that matters. The root of capitalism is in machinery... well, technically in animals I suppose, but either way, rooted in the concept of reproductive items. This is great - it vastly improves our quality of life, material wealth... but everything comes down a fundamental issue - we need to feed these things exponentially more to get exponentially more out of them.

    Yes, I suppose I am talking about sustainability. But I'm not talking about "green" sustainability, but the long term shift to sustainable forms. The reality is that we will eventually have to do this. Eventually resources will run out, eventually equilibrium will be forced upon us... eventually, but not without a sudden shock. Those shocks are evolutionary milestones - the tendency is to wipe out the majority of the population.


    I have nothing to contribute on how to achieve this goal, it is merely my opinion the greatest shift that will be required. I believe that resources should be strangled at the world level, progressively and artificially, so as to force a slow adoptation of higher technology and sustainability.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I find replys in this thread quite narrow minded because no one proposed anything really new. This is not problem just on this forum it is a global problem and very serious problem.
    Yes, I am very surprised by this attitude and lack of imagination. Also, how is it possible that the psychological perspective is ignored? This forum should have many people interested in psychology, so it shouldn't be much of a problem to look at capitalism from that perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I think that modern capitalism has created many dangerous illusion. The most dangerous one is that people started to think like "When will it be done?" of "How much will it cost?" but the real question is "Can it be done at all and how stabile will it be on the long run?"
    Yes. Capitalism is expansive system. It starts to be at the limits of its expansion, since there aint no places to expand to. Other than that, the market doesn't know how to flatline. Capitalism needs to grow or crash. That is dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Does this planet really has enough resources for us to continue the game?
    In the long run, no. And this is the truth capitalism tries to keep from surfacing. If and when the oil production starts declining, the market flatlines (If we are lucky. It could as well decline) for a long time. Capitalism will not handle that. If we had something to replace oil, then we might get to play the game a little longer. But I really doubt that this expansion can go on forever.

  6. #46
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    In the long run, no. And this is the truth capitalism tries to keep from surfacing. If and when the oil production starts declining, the market flatlines (If we are lucky. It could as well decline) for a long time. Capitalism will not handle that. If we had something to replace oil, then we might get to play the game a little longer. But I really doubt that this expansion can go on forever.
    Here's a conceptual thought for you...

    What would happen if we decided we no longer needed to grow? That is, the SOL right now is "ideal".

    How many hours would you have to work maintain the level of services we have right now?


    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    There are plenty of indigenous tribes that don't harm one another.
    I'd like to see a few examples - they were extremely rare. Most peace was transient, at best, and only isolationist tribes, by definition, weren't normally in conflict.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    What would happen if we decided we no longer needed to grow? That is, the SOL right now is "ideal".

    How many hours would you have to work maintain the level of services we have right now?
    I have thought about this. I actually wrote a post somewhere on this forum about it. Right now, it goes like, if I work I have to work all the time 8 hours a day, because I cant choose to work "enough" for my well being. My employer basically owns me and I cant choose that now I have just the right amount of money to buy my food and necessities. If I could work "just enough" I would need about 500 euros a month + some for the rainy day. So lets say 600e. That means that I would work a week in a month, or that I work three months in a year.

    I don't know how this would work for other people and I am sure that if we changed to this kind of system it would freeze the growth and destroy the economy.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I agree with you. The fundamental problem with capitalism is that it consumes exponentially more resources, and the mentality is still that "capital" are physical resources.

    Of course, it isn't "capitalism" and its associated theories that are the issue. It's the social concept of capital that matters. The root of capitalism is in machinery... well, technically in animals I suppose, but either way, rooted in the concept of reproductive items. This is great - it vastly improves our quality of life, material wealth... but everything comes down a fundamental issue - we need to feed these things exponentially more to get exponentially more out of them.

    Yes, I suppose I am talking about sustainability. But I'm not talking about "green" sustainability, but the long term shift to sustainable forms. The reality is that we will eventually have to do this. Eventually resources will run out, eventually equilibrium will be forced upon us... eventually, but not without a sudden shock. Those shocks are evolutionary milestones - the tendency is to wipe out the majority of the population.


    I have nothing to contribute on how to achieve this goal, it is merely my opinion the greatest shift that will be required. I believe that resources should be strangled at the world level, progressively and artificially, so as to force a slow adoptation of higher technology and sustainability.
    This reminds me of a talk I saw once on TV:
    Universal scaling laws from cells to cities: towards a unified quantitative theory of biological and social structure and organization

    The basic idea is that system that exhibit this sort of exponential have to have punctuated changes that "restart" the exponential under new constraints.

    That would mean finding new resources and finding more efficient use of resources.

    Perhaps we'll eventually be forced to terraform and colonize other planets.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Perhaps we'll eventually be forced to terraform and colonize other planets.
    I find it more credible that the system will change before we have to go terraforming.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I have thought about this. I actually wrote a post somewhere on this forum about it. Right now, it goes like, if I work I have to work all the time 8 hours a day, because I cant choose to work "enough" for my well being. My employer basically owns me and I cant choose that now I have just the right amount of money to buy my food and necessities. If I could work "just enough" I would need about 500 euros a month + some for the rainy day. So lets say 600e. That means that I would work a week in a month, or that I work three months in a year.

    I don't know how this would work for other people and I am sure that if we changed to this kind of system it would freeze the growth and destroy the economy.
    But, if you stopped working, who would do what you do? Lets say you are a server. If you stop serving, would you still go out to eat? Who would serve you? the 500 euros is dependent on everyone *else* working (ie: being trapped).

    Expand on it. What do you enjoy doing? How many people have to support it? Even something cheap, like biking, would suddenly becomes extremely expensive. Building your home - thousands, tens of thousands, of man hours. What would happen? Less houses, more crowded conditions.

    The reduction in hours of work is similar to less efficient forms of labor - as in, lower technology. That's the issue. Even though technology enables all of us to do more, the balance point is very particular. If you do less, and others do less... you can do less and there is less. The maintenance of our economy is literally just below our actual output.

    For example, if we tentatively work out that about 25% of our population can support 100% of us at the industrial level (because that's how many people it would current take to maintain the old standard of living and the technology infrastructure required), then we could reduce our hours to 25% of what we currently do.

    But it would be meaningless! We'd be living without computers, medicine... heat, air conditioning. To maintain all infrastructure requires virtually everyone to be, as you say, trapped. You can easily become "free" with virtually no money. I worked it out to less than $15,000 here in BC - the approximate cost for a bunch of land on which you can farm, seed money, set up tools. You'd work long hard days, though... so what is the benefit?

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The basic idea is that system that exhibit this sort of exponential have to have punctuated changes that "restart" the exponential under new constraints.
    Kind of an aside - do you believe in the singularity concept? (The abstract indirectly reminded me of it)

    That would mean finding new resources and finding more efficient use of resources.

    Perhaps we'll eventually be forced to terraform and colonize other planets.
    I think this is the way forward. Well, that's what we are doing, but replace terraforming with being able to mine increasingly hostile environments (artic, undersea). However, the logic behind squeezing resources now is relatively simple: it forces the change (ie: new resources/efficient use of resources) to come faster than would be economically viable. Examples? Stuff like taxing iron mining and subsidising iron recovery/recycling.

    I wasn't a popular camper when I said that I think that there should be an exponentially increasing tax on gas. We recently introduced a carbon tax here - I said that they should raise it by 2% every year (ie: 1.02*1.02). The money gets returned to the citizens in the province in direct rebates (ie: cheque). I think it's a good idea... not many agree

    Our infrastructure is built around our resource dependence and constraints will lead to a more robust infrastructure and reduces the odds on "doomsday" level events and reduce system shocks. Humans, as an organism are... well... organic. We'll adjust, as we did when we were faced with extinction (down to the thousands), assuming any survive. However, the position that we have is heavily dependent on the systems we have. To move forward, we need to exert some control over environment. Market failure within a country is one thing - world wide "market failure" is disaster.

    Perhaps I'm being greedy - but I think that there is a systemic bias in humans (time preference) that reduces the amount of research/advancement in the correct areas (and often encourages in the wrong areas) and that we don't computer externalities very well (ie: future garbage issues vs reclaiming old use).

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