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  1. #31
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    You also don't see that your system grows quickly beyond carrying capacity. In a small community, this works. But once someone--anyone--becomes displeased with such an existence, then who knows.
    They say that once we went beyond the bicycle we started more than just automobile tires rolling, because then there was a need for mechanics, for better roads, for catastrophic accident care, for improvements to the cars, etc. which hassle outweighed the benefits of the cars themselves.

    I remember a story about a tycoon who was on vacation and noticed from his villa view that a local fisherman was always coming home after half the day was over. He watched it enough to know that it was probably a regular pattern and then he accosted the fisherman, and asked him why not stay out all day. The fisherman replied that he met his needs in less time than that, and that he wanted to spend the time with his wife and family, enjoying himself and them. The tycoon told the fisherman that by working beyond his own personal needs he could amass more capital or profits to re-invest. The fisherman asked him what he would invest in, and he replied "More boats, or better equipment" and the man asked "What for ?" The tycoon replied that "This way you will eventually be able to simply hire a guy to do the fishing for you." "And why would I want to do that ?" "So you can enjoy yourself." The reply - "But I am already doing that."

    Of course these stories are overly simplistic but here seems a kernal of truth to them.

    Kuryakin ? Waverley here. Solo to re-supply you at the meeting place.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  2. #32
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    ...please bear with me as I talk about something I saw through the eyes of a child and perhaps the perceptions of a child...
    Gorgeous, Anja. Yesterday I watched a Turkish film called Bes Vakit (Times and Winds). It sounded very much like what you described. A small community by the sea and mountains that is very insular. The village people gave food to the teacher, they helped repair "Grandma's" home, if someone else needed something, others helped to get it. It quickly became a new ideal. It had its share of problems, but you couldn't help but feel that the strength of interdependence would get them through anything.

    The pictures below show clips from the film. The first is the modern elders discussing how best to deal with a man who had beaten a child. Second shows (I think) one of the interpretive "death" scenes. The third (a tiny part of the film), a place of religious practice. The fourth, a view of the village, mountains, and sea.



    This is set in the present. The odd car, a tractor, refrigerator, modern appliances, a mobile phone for the doctor (no one else would need one, that's for sure).

    Relentlessly engaging; a beautifully filmed study of a divided society
    http://badges.mypersonality.info/badge/0/6/68764.png
    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  3. #33
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You're confusing an economic system with a governance system.
    It is indeed very interesting how control over the power-money nexus is the main bone of contention and how politics and democracy too serve to consolidate and perpetuate social structure which includes vested interests especially. Coincidentally, organized religion when in the form of codified law seems to serve the same purpose and seeing as religion (in the form of codified law) was the only politico-economic and social system, it makes sense why it seems so akin to and why its logical end seems to be similar (in this intermediary stage when large breakthroughs of a fundamental nature are still to truly take place) to the end that the combination of the various political, social and economic systems that have existed in history have successively brought humanity to.

    Two things I heard mentioned on bbc...

    first the 'religious' nature of the new larger system in the world which someone else had verbalized as the 'new trinity' of the nation state, globalization & capitalism.

    second was some years ago when a study had tried to get a measure of how 'happy and satisfied' (or so I loosely recall) citizens of various countries were. interestingly enough they said that Cuban citizens were 'happier and more satisfied' than American citizens. could never have imagined that to have ever been the case!

    Anja's comment : http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post353033

    Anja, that barter stuff is being mentioned more as days go by.. & yes its the year 2008!
    The answer must be in the attempt
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  4. #34
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Quaint? Indeed. A safe place to live and raise children? For sure. Are there greed and human failings? There are, of course. But the way the system works promotes taking care of one's neighbors as well as one's self.

    I can't help but believe that, despite it backwardness and shortcomings, this system worked very well in providing health in a number of life areas. And I think that many of the qualities we had in that little spot in fly-over country have been discarded by a society which seems to be rushing headlong into confusion, mistrust and meaninglessness.

    The focus on material things has robbed many of their sense of connection with people. And at great cost to all.
    Sounds great. I wonder how it could be possible to take those values into modern system. Maybe communism was trying to achieve that, but failed in making it too fast and too big.

    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    A touching story of innocence, Anja, but if you've ever wanted something you couldn't afford, or have been jealous, or just craved some financial security, then you've been stricken with the same greed responsible for so many inventions and innovations.
    But, in a tight community like that your emotional needs are mainly satisfied. There is little need to show "that you are somebody" because you are already respected by providing something for the village. If you are respected and have your say in things, why should you want to make a lot of money?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    You also don't see that your system grows quickly beyond carrying capacity. In a small community, this works. But once someone--anyone--becomes displeased with such an existence, then who knows.
    You are right. It stopped working when people moved to cities. But, I imagine it could work again if we built the cities in a different way. Now they are built in order to maximize people's privacy and maximize the amount of people in the area. What if they were built in a way that in each floor of a building there were some space for the people to socialize with each other? Like a living room for the whole floor. Everyone know their neighbor. If you want a babysitter, why not ask your neighbor and give her a cake in return.

    This kind of little change could bring barter back in business and people would again be social animals and not these money making machines. I bet that in a community like that you could have someone unemployed "bum" working so much for the community that he would feel respected even if he doesn't have a job that he could brag about.

    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    I remember a story about a tycoon who was on vacation and noticed from his villa view that a local fisherman was always coming home after half the day was over. He watched it enough to know that it was probably a regular pattern and then he accosted the fisherman, and asked him why not stay out all day. The fisherman replied that he met his needs in less time than that, and that he wanted to spend the time with his wife and family, enjoying himself and them. The tycoon told the fisherman that by working beyond his own personal needs he could amass more capital or profits to re-invest. The fisherman asked him what he would invest in, and he replied "More boats, or better equipment" and the man asked "What for ?" The tycoon replied that "This way you will eventually be able to simply hire a guy to do the fishing for you." "And why would I want to do that ?" "So you can enjoy yourself." The reply - "But I am already doing that."
    Good story

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
    first the 'religious' nature of the new larger system in the world which someone else had verbalized as the 'new trinity' of the nation state, globalization & capitalism.
    Yeah, I have been noticing it also. The invisible hand is doing gods work at wall street as we speak

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
    second was some years ago when a study had tried to get a measure of how 'happy and satisfied' (or so I loosely recall) citizens of various countries were. interestingly enough they said that Cuban citizens were 'happier and more satisfied' than American citizens. could never have imagined that to have ever been the case!
    They still know what community and belonging means. We.. we are people raised by our parents who didn't have community or family. They choose the people they interact with. We have been raised to think that we have the right to cut off people we disagree with. Individualism. I can't even imagine what it is like to live in a tight-knit community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
    Anja, that barter stuff is being mentioned more as days go by.. & yes its the year 2008!
    And that is because barter didn't die for being too old way, it died because the community died. I would really like to see this come back.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    For some time now it has been obvious that capitalism is the best financial system, while democracy is the best governing system. They are both based on human greed. Capitalism is about having some and making more of it. Democracy is about protecting your personal interests.

    This works well most of the time but in some cases both of the systems raise ethical questions. Is it right that capitalism is effectively keeping the poor countries poor? Or, in case of democracy, we can't make drastic changes in environmental policies as it would be a political suicide to, for example, try to pass a law that bans fuel powered cars as personal transportation (you know it is ridiculous to have one person sitting inside a two-ton metal case driving to the store in the next block).

    All the other options seem to have failed, though. So, my question is, do these systems work because they are tapped to one of the basic human emotions? They are not intellectual or subtle, they are based on a very basic self-preservation instinct.
    Both modern economics and modern liberal democratic politics are based on counter-intuitive thinking.

    Who would have intuitively guessed before Adam Smith explained that private greed led to public properity. It is entirely counter-intuitive.

    And all politicians intuitively want to increase their power, but the essence of liberal democracy is the limitation of power. It is entirely counter-intuitive.

    And before universal literacy gave us counter-intuitive habits of thought, everything was intuitive.

    Astrology was intuitive but Astronomy is counter-intuitive. Alchemy was intuitive but Chemistry is counter-intuitive. MBTI was intuitive while psychometrics is counter-intuitive. Maximising power was intuitive but limiting power through liberal democracy is counter-intuitive.

    The whole of the modern world is based on counter-intuitive thinking.

    While the medieval world intuitively knew that greed was a sin. And that usury was as sin. And that the usurers were Jews. So that they intuitively thought that if we can get rid of the Jews, we can get rid of usury and greed.

    Not only were they wrong but they took us right to the edge of absolute evil.

    But still we hanker for the intuitive.

    We embrace MBTI and its intuitive father, Carl Jung. And we reject his rival, the counter-intuitive Sigmund Freud.

    God help us.

  6. #36
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    So, you are saying that it is not about greed but about greed control?

    Indigenous people everywhere led intuitive lives quite successfully. Don't you think you give too much credit on its evil powers?

  7. #37
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Sounds great. I wonder how it could be possible to take those values into modern system. Maybe communism was trying to achieve that, but failed in making it too fast and too big.
    Glasnost before perestroika maybe?
    and China isn't going down that path maybe?
    neither expansionist nor colonial?
    Looks like the difference between China and Russia/the ex-Soviet Union is becoming more evident with the passage of events and time.
    The answer must be in the attempt
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Indigenous people everywhere lead intuitive lives quite successfully. Don't you think you give too much credit on its evil powers?
    Good heavens, this is the myth of the Noble Savage perpetrated by Jean-Jacques Rousseau of the Eighteenth Century.

    If you care to read, "The Little Children Are Sacred", report by the Australian government, you may wake from your dream.

    But if you woke from your dream of the Noble Savage, you may wake from your dream of MBTI.

  9. #39
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Indigenous people everywhere led intuitive lives quite successfully.
    ...right up until the time they were out-competed by counter-intuitive people with better organizational systems and better technology. When that happened they either got on board with the new systems, were assimilated into the competitive people group, or died en masse.

    There's a reason why the Lakota no longer follow the buffalo.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...right up until the time they were out-competed by counter-intuitive people with better organizational systems and better technology. When that happened they either got on board with the new systems, were assimilated into the competitive people group, or died en masse.

    There's a reason why the Lakota no longer follow the buffalo.
    Quoted for truth.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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