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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I said KEEPING the countries poor. Ok, say we have a tiny country that has some U.S. owned factory. Their economy is dependent of it. The factory pays its workers the average pay of the country. The tiny country has a functional government that cant do anything about that factory not giving more money, because it would destroy their economy if the factory shipped to the next cheap country. This doesn't make the country stay poor directly, but, those people working in the factory could be working in small businesses that would benefit the country more by strengthening their private sector.
    Do you have data that shows that companies pay just the average salary?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I said KEEPING the countries poor. Ok, say we have a tiny country that has some U.S. owned factory. Their economy is dependent of it. The factory pays its workers the average pay of the country. The tiny country has a functional government that cant do anything about that factory not giving more money, because it would destroy their economy if the factory shipped to the next cheap country. This doesn't make the country stay poor directly, but, those people working in the factory could be working in small businesses that would benefit the country more by strengthening their private sector.
    Usually, people who are dirt poor are subsistence farmers and artisans, and then they get a factory job that pays wages, then their children and grandchildren (who finally have extra money) start businesses of their own, get educations, etc. That's how most economically backward countries modernize.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I am not for communism, for the tenth time!

    You know, people, I was hoping to see visions to where the system could be led to, not this status quo reinforcing. I bet most of you guys could easily vision some sci-fi scenarios reaching thousands years from now, yet you are unable to vision some other ways for the system? You do see that capitalism has many stages behind it? Do you really think that this is it? The final and the best form? We are in an interesting time in history, the capitalism is changing and I would like to get your view on how it might become in the next fifty, hundred or thousand years.
    You are correct. How about communism? If artificial intelligence takes off, so will other tech, and we'll have a self-advancing society which damn well better be communist. Trouble is, capitalism is the best thing going right now, and probably will remain so for at least another fifty years.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I am not for communism, for the tenth time!

    You know, people, I was hoping to see visions to where the system could be led to, not this status quo reinforcing. I bet most of you guys could easily vision some sci-fi scenarios reaching thousands years from now, yet you are unable to vision some other ways for the system? You do see that capitalism has many stages behind it? Do you really think that this is it? The final and the best form? We are in an interesting time in history, the capitalism is changing and I would like to get your view on how it might become in the next fifty, hundred or thousand years.
    I can't. Because human nature won't change. People, no matter with what kind of technology, will be greedy. Which is why capitalism works.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  5. #25
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Would greed be as prevalent without a scarcity of resources? Is it really human nature?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    This will sound like I'm looking at something through rose-colored glasses and to some degree I suppose I am. So please bear with me as I talk about something I saw through the eyes of a child and perhaps the perceptions of a child.

    I grew up with possibly the last remaining piece of the barter system operating in a communal way. The prairie folk were insular and interdependent. People who formed small communities each had a place in that community with skills that they could devote to better and sustain their mutual lives and living circumstances. The townspeople were dependent on the farm people and vice-versa.

    A certain amount of trust had developed. People married into other families and close bonds were built. The community's members learned who kept their word and who didn't, whose work was exceptional and prompt and whose wasn't.

    There was domestic and street violence, avarice, scandal but it was the exception and there was little room for comfortable settlement for those who couldn't overcome those problems. Those who tried receive support from the community. It was everyone's concern because the community was small.

    If a man beat his wife and she was the woman who was going to do your washing on the weekend, you had an investment in protecting her well-being.
    If a man fell ill and couldn't work others harvested his crops for him. Because if he didn't have money to spend in town the shop owner's children would go hungry.

    Chickens were traded for medical services. The individual who ministered to the people's spiritual needs was paid in Sunday dinners. Baked goods were exchanged for seamstress services. People found mutual sustenance and respect through these exchanges.

    It was a system which promoted esteem in the individual as well as the community. One's worth very much became tied to his values and his abilities.

    Amazingly, this system is still in existence "down home." Many people don't lock their homes or cars. And trading is a common practice. The bank still gives out loans by a man's word.

    I used to joke with my parents that I could wipe them out by walking into the bank and telling them that my folks wanted me to withdraw their savings! My friend who never left has bought and sold farms in the same manner. Why not? They've been living together for three or four generations now.

    Quaint? Indeed. A safe place to live and raise children? For sure. Are there greed and human failings? There are, of course. But the way the system works promotes taking care of one's neighbors as well as one's self.


    I can't help but believe that, despite it backwardness and shortcomings, this system worked very well in providing health in a number of life areas. And I think that many of the qualities we had in that little spot in fly-over country have been discarded by a society which seems to be rushing headlong into confusion, mistrust and meaninglessness.

    The focus on material things has robbed many of their sense of connection with people. And at great cost to all.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #27
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I grew up with possibly the last remaining piece of the barter system operating in a communal way.
    Where was this, Anja ?

    It sounds a leetle bit like Mississippi, when I went through there in the mid 70's.

    I bet you've got a lot of good memories from those days.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  8. #28
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Would greed be as prevalent without a scarcity of resources? Is it really human nature?
    It would be irrelevant then. And capitalism wouldn't exist. Unlimited wants + unlimited resources = no economics.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #29
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    South Central MN, kuranes, where I have returned.

    I had family in Chicago and when they came to visit they never wanted to go home. It was a great place to grow up. We probably put a little more emphasis on education than Mississippi!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  10. #30
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    A touching story of innocence, Anja, but if you've ever wanted something you couldn't afford, or have been jealous, or just craved some financial security, then you've been stricken with the same greed responsible for so many inventions and innovations.

    You also don't see that your system grows quickly beyond carrying capacity. In a small community, this works. But once someone--anyone--becomes displeased with such an existence, then who knows.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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