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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Greed is natural, even animals are greedy (just try and make my dog share his food if you question this). Greed, however, has historically been considered maladaptive to a cohesive society. Greed has been placed as one of the seven deadly sins.
    That's why we train the dogs as puppies to tolerate us taking their food away. We need the similar training for people and their greed

  2. #162
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    That's why we train the dogs as puppies to tolerate us taking their food away. We need the similar training for people and their greed
    You can't change human nature, you can only learn to work with it.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    So, basically you guys think that I am either victim of environmentalist propaganda, or delusional?
    There's a third choice. You could be deliberately propogating misinformation to advance your own interests.

    I'm not saying that's it, but it is a third choice.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    You can't change human nature, you can only learn to work with it.
    And the salesmen work with it a lot more successfully than the environmentalists. Its a shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    There's a third choice. You could be deliberately propogating misinformation to advance your own interests.
    What would that self-interest be around here? If I was a politician, then maybe it was possible. I don't have any gain in this. This is mostly frustrating.

  5. #165
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    And the salesmen work with it a lot more successfully than the environmentalists. Its a shame.
    Then the environmentalists need to learn from the salesmen- you can't work well with the wrong tool.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #166
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    So, basically you guys think that I am either victim of environmentalist propaganda, or delusional?
    I don't think you're delusional. I don't think that most environmentalists are delusional, at least not in the clinical sense. I think it's a case of people hearing what they want to hear. The environmental cause gives people a sense of being a part of something important, something bigger than themselves, a sense of purpose.

    Ok, so, let's see this the propaganda perspective. If someone spreads propaganda, is it more likely that they are environmentalists (who don't have personal gain in it) or the salesmen (who have personal gain in it)?
    Environmentalists DO gain from their agenda. They may not necessarily gain financially (though some do), but that's not the only measure of personal gain.

    And, well, if I am delusional, I wouldn't know that I am would I. It just seems like common sense to me that if you make something, it makes pollution. The more you buy the more you pollute.
    If your beliefs are based on a false premise (ie. that humans can pollute enough to "kill the planet"), then your actions, based on those beliefs, are likely to be irrational.

    If you don't accept Christianity's premises (ie. you don't believe there is a god), it appears to be irrational. But if you accept Christianity's premises, it can appear to be quite rational.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #167
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    So, basically you guys think that I am either victim of environmentalist propaganda, or delusional?

    Ok, so, let's see this the propaganda perspective. If someone spreads propaganda, is it more likely that they are environmentalists (who don't have personal gain in it) or the salesmen (who have personal gain in it)?
    You don't think that environmentalists have a personal gain in being alarmist? That sounds incredibly naive to me. Winning people to your cause, changing the laws of your nation, and getting more jobs and money in government, corporate, and educational entities do not = "personal gain" now? That's laughable.


    And, well, if I am delusional, I wouldn't know that I am would I. It just seems like common sense to me that if you make something, it makes pollution. The more you buy the more you pollute.
    If that were true, the United States would be the leading polluter in the world right now, and it is not. China is.


    There is also moral responsibility of the choices we make. Do you understand that?
    Absolutely. However, killing people indiscriminately is proscribed by every society in the world, and it can easily be demonstrated why that kind of behavior is harmful to others. The same cannot be said for the myriad examples of economic behavior, because I could just as easily argue that the majority of them are net positives to society. Your analogy is inherently flawed.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #168
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    What would that self-interest be around here? If I was a politician, then maybe it was possible. I don't have any gain in this. This is mostly frustrating.
    Well, sure... but if you were acting out of base self-interest, all of the above might be a lie.

    Again, I believe you. I'm just discussing hypotheticals.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If your beliefs are based on a false premise (ie. that humans can pollute enough to "kill the planet"), then your actions, based on those beliefs, are likely to be irrational.
    It's more like "humans pollute enough to kill humans, eventually". What is your premise then? Humans can never pollute enough to have effect on planet scale?

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You don't think that environmentalists have a personal gain in being alarmist? That sounds incredibly naive to me. Winning people to your cause, changing the laws of your nation, and getting more jobs and money in government, corporate, and educational entities do not = "personal gain" now? That's laughable.
    This is true if the environmentalist isn't doing it for the cause. But, if it is for the cause, then the possible gain is a side-effect more than a personal gain motivating them to be environmentalists. I don't know how we could ever know how many are motivated by the personal gain. But salesmen, they all must be there for profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    If that were true, the United States would be the leading polluter in the world right now, and it is not. China is.
    "Made in China", you know what I mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, sure... but if you were acting out of base self-interest, all of the above might be a lie.
    True. What would the motivation be?

  10. #170
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    It's more like "humans pollute enough to kill humans, eventually". What is your premise then? Humans can never pollute enough to have effect on planet scale?
    Prove to me that not polluting would be more beneficial than polluting, then you have yourself a rational argument. As it stands, environmental arguments are based more on sentimentality than cold, hard facts. It's about how things 'should' be, not how they are.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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