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  1. #151
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    People can be lied to, in order to prey on their fears etc. or in other ways, and the things or philosophies that can be "sold" in this way do not always have to be simple marketplace commodities, but they sometimes are. Harmful attributes can also be "hidden" or "downplayed" or.... "undersold" by the same means. If these are hidden qualities that harm people over a long period of time, versus having an immediate obvious impact, that most people ( other than some scientists ) don't know about, then the "market adjustment" will not suss "failures" out quickly enough. Still....it is not coercion.

    Lying to people is fraud. I don't disagree that there are hidden costs and externalities in some cases, but isn't the onus on the modern individual to discern what they believe, rather than just accepting everything he or she hears as fact? Don't we do that every day?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Environmentalism is the value I care about. I just wanted to point out that there is no need to be unhappy without buying stuff. Not everyone needs to value the same things I do, but everyone should contribute to the future by not buying so much shit. Besides, I think that at some cases the consumerism has replaced or altered the basic human need gratifications. A bit like fat people and their food. We are addicted to buying shit.

    You shouldn't feel so comfortable telling people how to live their lives, especially when they are actually doing good. Buying things is very, very important, as I've stated before. How many people are ACTUALLY addicted to buying things of no use to them? I've never met anyone who is so pathologically consumerist in my entire life, and I know a lot of young, wealthy Americans.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #153
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Not everyone needs to value the same things I do, but everyone should contribute to the future by not buying so much shit.
    Haha, what a wonderful contradictory statement.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #154
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I am disconcerted, Pure, about the idea that charging those who can afford it, to pollute is a viable solution. Did I misread you

    I am not in favor of a "pollution tax" or "carbon tax" or whatever you would call it. I am in favor of making entities who do pollute subject to clean up their own messes and/or be sued into oblivion by the people affected by their misdeeds.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Haha, what a wonderful contradictory statement.
    Well, yeah it is if we think that people really should have the option to make this place even worse for their grandchildren. We don't let people go killing each other even if their values say they should (for example religious nuts). So why should we let people pollute the planet to death? The society controls values, not you or me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You shouldn't feel so comfortable telling people how to live their lives, especially when they are actually doing good. Buying things is very, very important, as I've stated before. How many people are ACTUALLY addicted to buying things of no use to them? I've never met anyone who is so pathologically consumerist in my entire life, and I know a lot of young, wealthy Americans.
    The way I see it, anyone who is "shopping" just for the fun of it has a few screws loosened.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am not in favor of a "pollution tax" or "carbon tax" or whatever you would call it. I am in favor of making entities who do pollute subject to clean up their own messes and/or be sued into oblivion by the people affected by their misdeeds.
    I can see advantages to your way of tackling this problem. If we had pollution/carbon taxes, corporations would get people favorable to their causes selected for congressional committees. In essence, they'd corrupt the system for their own benefit, just like they do with every other regulatory agency. It's a lot more difficult to corrupt the justice system because power isn't as centralized.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #157
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Well, yeah it is if we think that people really should have the option to make this place even worse for their grandchildren. We don't let people go killing each other even if their values say they should (for example religious nuts). So why should we let people pollute the planet to death? The society controls values, not you or me.
    There is MAJOR difference between killing people indiscriminately and employing the Earth's resources in your daily life. Come on, you have to understand that.


    The way I see it, anyone who is "shopping" just for the fun of it has a few screws loosened.
    That is your viewpoint, but I window-shop a decent amount, and I read A LOT online about planned future purchases. A large portion of the choices we make in life are purely or partially economic. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I don't get bored and go out to buy things, but I'd probably do that on occasion if I had way more money. Since I don't, I try to keep my spending down.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #158
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Well, yeah it is if we think that people really should have the option to make this place even worse for their grandchildren. We don't let people go killing each other even if their values say they should (for example religious nuts). So why should we let people pollute the planet to death? The society controls values, not you or me.
    Who is polluting the planet to death? I haven't ever seen hard evidence, only supposition and extrapolation (usually based on shaky premises). I see environmentalism for fear-mongering, just like neo-cons use terrorism. So from my perspective, you're creating a false enemy in order to impose your values on others. You're not that much different than the religious zealots you despise.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #159
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    So, basically you guys think that I am either victim of environmentalist propaganda, or delusional?

    Ok, so, let's see this the propaganda perspective. If someone spreads propaganda, is it more likely that they are environmentalists (who don't have personal gain in it) or the salesmen (who have personal gain in it)?

    And, well, if I am delusional, I wouldn't know that I am would I. It just seems like common sense to me that if you make something, it makes pollution. The more you buy the more you pollute.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There is MAJOR difference between killing people indiscriminately and employing the Earth's resources in your daily life. Come on, you have to understand that.
    There is also moral responsibility of the choices we make. Do you understand that?

  10. #160
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am not in favor of a "pollution tax" or "carbon tax" or whatever you would call it. I am in favor of making entities who do pollute subject to clean up their own messes and/or be sued into oblivion by the people affected by their misdeeds.
    There is a benefit to combining carbon tax with making corporations clean up thier messes.

    Different corporations pollute differently, some pollute with emmissions, which are impossible to clean up once they have been emitted, which makes a carbon tax the only way in which we can really clean up the mess they have created (and if you don't think that emissions cause a problem, you can always check out the effects of acid rain in northern Scandanavia caused by Russian factory emmissions!). The release of more tangible pollutants, such as sludges and slag are much easier to have a company physically clean up. This is the reason for carbon tax AND enforced cleaning.

    On greed as the driving mechanism and problem with our world?

    Greed is natural, even animals are greedy (just try and make my dog share his food if you question this). Greed, however, has historically been considered maladaptive to a cohesive society. Greed has been placed as one of the seven deadly sins.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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