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  1. #141
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    The 7 cardinal sins are the basis for a system of any age.

    Greed, Pride, Sloth, Lust, Envy, Gluttony (okay fine, Wrath is what we make laws against).

    Greed--you want something. So you work for it.
    Pride--You want to be proud of yourself. So you work to develop a reputation.
    Sloth--You want to do whatever it is you want to do with your time. So you work to make enough money such that you're in control of your life.
    Lust--You want a beautiful significant other to make love to. So you in turn strive to be beautiful. This takes work.
    Envy--You want what someone else has. So you work to get something like it.
    Gluttony--You want to consume things. Whether it's expensive wines, or just go out to eat a little more, you work for that also.

    All of these cardinal "sins", except Wrath--are what humans are at the basic level. Selfish. They want things for themselves, be it money or sex or possessions or tasty food, and will go to great lengths to achieve them. So in order to fulfill their "unlimited" wants, they go out and produce that which other people find a use for.

    And so in turn, everyone is happy.

    That's pretty good point actually. So if we would find out that there really isn't more that motivate people, we should focus on pride, sloth and lust, since they are environment friendly. Pride is kinda the same thing we talked about respect earlier.

    Except that these are only the negative sides. The ideal communism was inspired by was most likely a family. Extended family working together for a better life for all. This is a positive emotion. It did fail as a system, but some communes might have been working all right, who knows. There must be more positives except the want to protect your loved ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I am greed (hence the avatar ), and greed will never die; nor will the systems humanity creates for itself ever be free of greed's grasp.
    Congratulations.

  2. #142
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    I think wanting to own things is a fairly primal need, and it is somewhat indulged by Capitalism. ( By that I mean some people within the capitalist system enjoy more feeling of "control" than others, and not that Communism would give you more of a feeling of ownership. )

    It is when we get into the implications that people are owned ( in all but name ) or can be owned period that we run into trouble, of course.

    In the "Conservative Feminism" thread it was mentioned by Peguy that the nuclear family as a primal unit ( fulfilling those needs ) has been around in its current form for so long that history has judged it the best way for individuals to proceed, and continue life etc. I don't think anyone questions that this approach also fits a primal demand. When discussing alternatives in that thread, it seemed the idea was that other perspectives were doomed by not being so tried and true, or primally basic.

    In the thread on cheating, people were discussing different concepts of what "betrayal" means in couples, with some people thinking emotions/intentions were more primal than physicality, and others feeling more "( physical ) possession is nine tenths of the law", to paraphrase it. Possible subconscious feelings of "ownership" here too, with respect to people, but in different ways.

    Of course these descriptions of "ownership" can be looked at in more than one way, with couples proud to tell one another "I'm glad you're 'mine' " and "I do take you for granted, but in a good way. I have faith in you and I know you feel the same about me" etc.

    But "ownership" can obviously be taken in a bad way too, and this has been pointed out in the feminist oriented threads as being something women have been forced into putting up with sometimes over centuries, even by "well meaning" guys versus the issue of generic slavery per se..

    So to rule out feminist alternatives to the old ways of the family by saying that they go against the grain of natural urges is not really accurate, because it pits one urge against another, in a way, with both having been around waaay long enough not to constitute a "flash in the pan" or merely trendy approach, as is sometimes implied by various criticisms. Nobody wants to be "owned". ( K leaves himself open here for claver retort . )

    * ducks *
    Nuclear family (= the breakup of the family) is the product of Industrialism.
    A new concept.
    It means neglect and resregard of the environment:
    The milieu of children and the elderly.

    What a waste.

  3. #143
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post

    What a waste.
    Wildcat, I am so glad you said the doubleyou word. It was what came to mind as I've read the last several posts.

    __________________________________________________ ___

    I am disconcerted, Pure, about the idea that charging those who can afford it, to pollute is a viable solution. Did I misread you?

    I am in thought of something I see happening locally frequently. People who can afford lake property brazenly violate our environmental guidlines to create a milheu which is aesthetically pleasing to them. They don't care what it may do to the lake or it's shores or it's creature, all of which combine to keep a healthy environment. They pay outrageously high fines to have things their way and others be damned.

    Others who are well-connected in government force their issues through the legal process by association and the hoi polloi has to eat it.

    The middle school in our neighborhood was closed due to being "condemnable" while a few "influential" folks pushed for their prestigious, state-of-the-art middle school on their side of town, forcing us to have to send our seventh grade children to go to a high school. The results were problematic for the parents and the children.

    Once the new school was a done deal they reopened our supposedly condemned middle school for community education.

    It happens all too often in a money-based society that the many pay, in multiple ways, for the whims of the weathy.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #144
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Induced? I assume you mean advertising, marketing, demographics, etc. No, I don't think it can be "induced" in the sense of "coerced."
    People can be lied to, in order to prey on their fears etc. or in other ways, and the things or philosophies that can be "sold" in this way do not always have to be simple marketplace commodities, but they sometimes are. Harmful attributes can also be "hidden" or "downplayed" or.... "undersold" by the same means. If these are hidden qualities that harm people over a long period of time, versus having an immediate obvious impact, that most people ( other than some scientists ) don't know about, then the "market adjustment" will not suss "failures" out quickly enough. Still....it is not coercion.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  5. #145
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Anja
    I am glad I made you happy

  6. #146
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    People can be lied to, in order to prey on their fears etc. or in other ways, and the things or philosophies that can be "sold" in this way do not always have to be simple marketplace commodities, but they sometimes are. Harmful attributes can also be "hidden" or "downplayed" or.... "undersold" by the same means. If these are hidden qualities that harm people over a long period of time, versus having an immediate obvious impact, that most people ( other than some scientists ) don't know about, then the "market adjustment" will not suss "failures" out quickly enough. Still....it is not coercion.
    The end is the means.

    The coercion is not an act.
    Nor it is a choice in a system based on greed.
    What is it?

    In a sound economy the medium of exchange is beyond exchange.

  7. #147
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    What is it?
    Poem for you and Night -
    "You will find the distance between them
    by connecting them. "
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Easy and less strenuous life would be to work less and be happy with food on the table and some friends and hobbies... They don't necessarily have to bring the apocalypse any closer. Buying stuff does.
    You are applying your own values to others, here.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #149
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Nuclear family (= the breakup of the family) is the product of Industrialism.
    A new concept.
    It means neglect and resregard of the environment:
    The milieu of children and the elderly.

    What a waste.
    You're correct in that the nuclear family is a product of modern society. Extended families and tribes were the norm before this. Now it seems we're trying to dissolve the nuclear family to make everyone a ward of the state.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You are applying your own values to others, here.
    Environmentalism is the value I care about. I just wanted to point out that there is no need to be unhappy without buying stuff. Not everyone needs to value the same things I do, but everyone should contribute to the future by not buying so much shit. Besides, I think that at some cases the consumerism has replaced or altered the basic human need gratifications. A bit like fat people and their food. We are addicted to buying shit.

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