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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    What I mean is, your phone is manufactured somewhere and it makes some amount of pollution. If we all buy a new phone every time we see something new come out, there will not be many generations after us.
    That makes absolutely no sense. You don't buy every phone there is to buy on the market, and making a phone is not as bad as, say, driving a car or generating electricity or even eating meat. Should everyone stop these things, too? Should people in Africa stop them, too? They consume far less than Americans do, but they may also use things that are worse for the environment (old, dirty cars, burning down forests for grazing land, etc.). Are you in favor of some type of built-in pollution tax on goods? I don't see exactly what you are getting at here.
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  2. #132
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    Psychological change would be optimal. The easiest way to be green is to not buy stuff.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Psychological change would be optimal. The easiest way to be green is to not buy stuff.
    That is also the easiest way to wreck the economy, which is counterproductive to being green. The best things we can do would be to:

    1) make polluters, not taxpayers, responsible for paying for the damage they wreak;

    2) stop subsidizing farmers in rich countries, ethanol, etc.;

    and 3) continue working on the technology to get away from burning petroleum and coal for energy and transportation.
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is also the easiest way to wreck the economy, which is counterproductive to being green.
    That is what proves the system imperfect. It needs to be changed before it crashes on its own.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I agree, I do believe it will have to be based on human nature. It can't work any other way. I would just want to have it based on something else than greed. Greed is part of the bad things in human nature. It could as well be based on something positive.
    All systems based off of human nature are based off of what humans do on DEFAULT.

    Every single human wants their needs and wants fulfilled. To that end, he is willing to sacrifice something (his time) in order to do something such that he could have money (aka he produces) so as to get his needs and wants fulfilled.

    And that is capitalism. Plain and simple. It goes by the most basic foundations of human nature, which is self-interest. Self-interest is why communism fails and capitalism works.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Every single human wants their needs and wants fulfilled. To that end, he is willing to sacrifice something (his time) in order to do something such that he could have money (aka he produces) so as to get his needs and wants fulfilled.

    And that is capitalism. Plain and simple. It goes by the most basic foundations of human nature, which is self-interest. Self-interest is why communism fails and capitalism works.
    I agree with every word here. But you haven't convinced me that greed is the only possible basis for a system of our age.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    That is what proves the system imperfect. It needs to be changed before it crashes on its own.
    Why? Wanting more things (or an easier, less strenuous life) makes people get up and work. That is a good thing.
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  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Why? Wanting more things (or an easier, less strenuous life) makes people get up and work. That is a good thing.
    Easy and less strenuous life would be to work less and be happy with food on the table and some friends and hobbies... They don't necessarily have to bring the apocalypse any closer. Buying stuff does.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I agree with every word here. But you haven't convinced me that greed is the only possible basis for a system of our age.
    The 7 cardinal sins are the basis for a system of any age.

    Greed, Pride, Sloth, Lust, Envy, Gluttony (okay fine, Wrath is what we make laws against).

    Greed--you want something. So you work for it.
    Pride--You want to be proud of yourself. So you work to develop a reputation.
    Sloth--You want to do whatever it is you want to do with your time. So you work to make enough money such that you're in control of your life.
    Lust--You want a beautiful significant other to make love to. So you in turn strive to be beautiful. This takes work.
    Envy--You want what someone else has. So you work to get something like it.
    Gluttony--You want to consume things. Whether it's expensive wines, or just go out to eat a little more, you work for that also.

    All of these cardinal "sins", except Wrath--are what humans are at the basic level. Selfish. They want things for themselves, be it money or sex or possessions or tasty food, and will go to great lengths to achieve them. So in order to fulfill their "unlimited" wants, they go out and produce that which other people find a use for.

    And so in turn, everyone is happy.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  10. #140
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    I am greed (hence the avatar ), and greed will never die; nor will the systems humanity creates for itself ever be free of greed's grasp.

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