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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You've got N, right? I don't know, but I can sit and see the patterns and where things will end up in 25 years, or 50 years, or 100...

    ...And I don't think exclusionary tactics are going to pan out for us in a larger timeframe even if they resolve some of our temporary problems.
    This is why I have the opinions I have. You seem to be able to get to the point a lot more effectively than me, Jennifer. Maybe you should take over this thread for now.

  2. #142
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    And in terms of support, who out there supports us right now? Israel, Japan, Britain, and more or less nobody else.
    Hmmm... I always find this interesting. The funny thing is, you don't seem to ask yourself which policies would likely gain you more allies in the long run... yet you want to nuke countries, act like kahn, and become isolationist - which includes trade.

    All of which would break your economic back, isolate your from allies and bring you to your knees.

    Believe it or not, cooperation is the higher survival mechanism. And caring for others, where possible, is generally a wise social choice.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You missed my point... we can expand production capacity for oil just as we can expand production capacity for apples. As far as I know, the rate at which oil is being produced hasn't even started to taper off. We know intellectually that the world petroleum supply is limited... but we have yet to see the effects in production.

    But the price of crude dropped below $90 the barrel this week, and US demand for gasoline is down ten percent from this point last year. Under those circumstances, don't look for any new oil refineries to be built any time soon.
    You know Hubbert's curve? It predicted the U.S. peak oil. It also predicted that world would peak about now. We will have to see. But as far as fertilizers, the high oil prize already doubled the costs here. I can imagine how bad that must be for the developing countries.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Believe it or not, cooperation is the higher survival mechanism. And caring for others, where possible, is generally a wise social choice.
    While the former finds expression in foreign policy, the latter never does.

  5. #145
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...But the price of crude dropped below $90 the barrel this week, and US demand for gasoline is down ten percent from this point last year. Under those circumstances, don't look for any new oil refineries to be built any time soon.
    But gas prices dropped under $3/gallon in Carlisle.
    That's all that matters, right?

    *cough*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #146
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    While the former finds expression in foreign policy, the latter never does.
    Yup, sadly, the nature of government makes it impossible to really care for others. The one that wants to help does it for itself (votes, political maneuvering), the one that gets the help tends to stand in the way (corrupt, greedy, incompetent).

  7. #147
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yup, sadly, the nature of government makes it impossible to really care for others. The one that wants to help does it for itself (votes, political maneuvering), the one that gets the help tends to stand in the way (corrupt, greedy, incompetent).
    Well, just like you need to translate Ti concepts into Te action in order to actually implement said concepts (and often this involves the "watering down" of the original concepts unfortunately)...

    ... Fi compassion needs to be translated into Fe-style behavior (i.e., what is workable in real life), and some things are lost too in that translation. And of course you get other people mucking with the values in translation and even derailing them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #148
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... Fi compassion needs to be translated into Fe-style behavior (i.e., what is workable in real life), and some things are lost too in that translation. And of course you get other people mucking with the values in translation and even derailing them.
    That's... a very interesting statement, and well put

    However, for the Ti and Tes in the room, it should be noted that compassion is socially beneficial. You don't have to do it just because you feel like you should be nice. Disfranchised people strike out. They can do it with paper cuts, or they can do it with planes... but it does/will happen.

    Rejecting that and taking on the 'Khan' way has a limited shelf life for empires. We only remember the successful Khans, of which there aren't many.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You don't have to do it just because you feel like you should be nice. Disfranchised people strike out. They can do it with paper cuts, or they can do it with planes... but it does/will happen.

    Rejecting that and taking on the 'Khan' way has a limited shelf life for empires. We only remember the successful Khans, of which there aren't many.
    Yes, and if U.S. goes into isolation, the terrorist really have won.

    Hey! I can't believe this! We are finally back in topic!





  10. #150
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    If you pay a penny for something that's worth a dollar, you will get rich and the poor guy selling to you will not. The market works that way with the poor countries. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean its right.
    Capitalism is not the cause. All humans have the ability to steal, regardless of their ideology. What you are doing is like blaming guns for murders, instead of the murders. But I'm sure you do that too.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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