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  1. #121
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Everything is connected in this intricate biosphere we call our world.

    There is no such thing as an isolated incident.

    Every action is met with an inversely proportional reaction. While one of us consumes as much as four human beings easily could, four foreigners are left to sparingly consume what should be enough for only one.
    The zero-sum fallacy again.

    Cap'n, I think I'll eat an apple today so you can't have one.

  2. #122
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The zero-sum fallacy again.

    Cap'n, I think I'll eat an apple today so you can't have one.
    That is not what I am saying at all!!!

    If you take my apple, then yes, you happen to gain at my loss.

    Get it?
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #123
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    That is not what I am saying at all!!!

    If you take my apple, then yes, you happen to gain at my loss.

    Get it?
    I do understand the concept of theft, but I don't see how this applies to western consumption. My apple may have been grown in Peru, but it wasn't stolen from some poor Peruvian... it was paid for at the prevailing rate.

    (actually, the apple I just ate was grown in Maryland at an orchard near where my father lives. It was delicious... fresh orchard fruit is always better. Thank you, Captain!)

  4. #124
    Senor Membrane
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    How is it possible that these kinds of concepts are understood by NFs and not by NTs?

    If there is a certain number of apples in the world and they are shared unevenly enough, someone is left without. The big question: Is this acceptable or not?

  5. #125
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  6. #126
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    How is it possible that these kinds of concepts are understood by NFs and not by NTs?

    If there is a certain number of apples in the world and they are shared unevenly enough, someone is left without. The big question: Is this acceptable or not?
    I understand it. But it was only after the strong influence of a close INFP friend of mine that I started thinking this way, so maybe it is an NF thing.

    I believe in equality of opportunity rather than equality of position, though.

  7. #127
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    How is it possible that these kinds of concepts are understood by NFs and not by NTs?

    If there is a certain number of apples in the world and they are shared unevenly enough, someone is left without. The big question: Is this acceptable or not?
    But you miss another point... we could grow more apples if we wanted to. Your "certain number of apples" is not a fixed number. If there was increased demand for apples, we'd plant more orchards, and there would be more apples.

    The situation now is that we have about as much apple-producing capacity as is required to satisfy demand.

    And that's why my eating an apple doesn't take an apple out of the hands of some poor starving kid somewhere.

  8. #128
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Limited Resources + Unlimited Wants = Scarcity.
    And in a lot of poor countries, Limited Resources + Basic Wants leads to scarcity.

    A couple of months ago, George Bush said that the world food crisis was because countries like India and China had started eating. I could see where he was coming from, but it was a little galling, like the nutrition that previously malnourished people were finally getting was being resented by others.

  9. #129
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    Limited Resources + Unlimited Wants = Scarcity.
    And in a lot of poor countries, Limited Resources + Basic Wants leads to scarcity.
    This is true to a degree, but wrong in one respect: there's no such thing as "unlimited wants."

  10. #130
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    But you miss another point... we could grow more apples if we wanted to. Your "certain number of apples" is not a fixed number. If there was increased demand for apples, we'd plant more orchards, and there would be more apples.

    The situation now is that we have about as much apple-producing capacity as is required to satisfy demand.

    And that's why my eating an apple doesn't take an apple out of the hands of some poor starving kid somewhere.

    But demand isn't all just based on "desire," is it?

    It's also based on ability of the system to respond to desire?

    So there can be lots of starving people in the world, yet there seems to be no "demand" because there is no easy way for the (1) desire to be transmitted to those capable of meeting it [i.e., "Oh, I REALLY WANT THE APPLES!"] and for the (2) desire to be met from the practical standpoint [i.e., "Oh, how on earth do we GET them the apples?"]

    I don't think we can assume that desire is always easily transmitted/communicated, not because the desire doesn't exist but because the system is SO fubar to begin with.

    Therefore, your eating an apple takes an apple out of the hands of a child who might have been dying to have one... if they knew what an apple was, if they weren't busy scrounging cardboard and grass so they'd have SOMETHING to eat, and if they had a cell phone or internet mail account to let you know they were starving in the first place + an address you could mail the apple to and a postal system you could mail the apple through and a refrigerated vehicle you could mail the apple in.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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