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View Poll Results: Do you agree with the OP?

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  • Yes, I lean towards the left and this is a real thing

    5 18.52%
  • No, I lean towards the left and this is a fiction

    3 11.11%
  • I lean towards the left I sort of agree and sort of don't (explain)

    4 14.81%
  • Yes, I lean towards the right and this is a real thing

    4 14.81%
  • No, I lean towards the right and this is a fiction

    0 0%
  • I lean towards the right. I sort of agree and sort of don't (explain)

    1 3.70%
  • I couldn't give a shit about politics

    4 14.81%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    6 22.22%
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  1. #21
    ISFP complete Amargith's Avatar
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    Im sure it can be a real thing but it seems to me radicalization requires opposition - an enemy to feed the fears that trigger radicalization. So, i actually think it happens a lot faster when two radical opposites are constantly exposed to each other and moderates are forced to choose a side in this war ‘against evil’

    Now, if you have a meeting ground of people with that fear already present in their life, they ll bring that radical attitude with them. If all people there are like this, there is no way to dissipate that fear - something that does happen in healthy communities where people feel safe and come from all walks of life as they ll be able to use thar safety to buffer for that angst and cause it to slowly ease up - and that does lead to that ‘preparing for battle’ stuff you see in echo chambers.

    The other echochamber is the one that has been normalised - like in a cult, where people have gone numb and fear reigns supreme - and is spoonfed to the next generation. That one needs careful exposion - to not trigger the fear too strongly - to other ideas in order for it to move forward again.

    Meanwhile, i do believe right and left can be found in the proper balance within an individual and that the two are in fact complimentary, and a harmonious environment where both are optimalised and in unison can be achieved to the pount where a community can be like a good echochambe, that promotes stability, tolerance and security for all there.

    In essence, its like any good relationship - it needs trust, communication and above all respect for the otherside.

    And therein lies the problem.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The analysis as is it is phrased in the OP doesn't seem to do a very good job of explaining why real bi-modal situations happen, that is one where it there are extreme distributions to both sides but not much in the middle. If things always followed the trend described, conflict would actually be relatively low in a sense, because groups would quickly settle into places of agreement.
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The analysis as is it is phrased in the OP doesn't seem to do a very good job of explaining why real bi-modal situations happen, that is one where it there are extreme distributions to both sides but not much in the middle. If things always followed the trend described, conflict would actually be relatively low in a sense, because groups would quickly settle into places of agreement.
    I'm pretty tired of all discussion of politics at the minute, I think its become a cess pit of compulsives and affect disorders for a while, I'm not just talking about this forum.

    Although that said, if you do consider this forum for a minute, specifics rather than vague generalisations, any analysis of posts, left or right, for some time will probably discover that they are very narrowly defined, I dont know how to conduct that research but maybe the sources of news media which are being shared would give a clue to the filter bubbles involved.

    Its been strongly, strongly right wing propaganda which has been the staple, just browsing the topics and headings or OPs in the politics subforum would give a good idea of that, although if you go back a few years maybe there's more content on liberal identity politics and campaigning against heteronormativity, you need to go back longer than that to actually see any posts which appear to be genuine discussion topics rather than the sort of "Am I Right? I'm Right" (as in correct) echo chamber style posting.

    I do think that there's a chance the topics were more moderate and less militant then, I think perhaps because the discussion, the wish to discuss, trumped the actual politics. I think this is a crucial change and its wider than online forums.

    A lot of the criticisms of supposed totalitarianism or closed mindedness etc. which are good and not simply propaganda, even some of it that is propaganda (a stopped clock is right twice a day, in the valley of the blind the one eyed man is king) have a huge blind spot to their own thinking, like the echo chamber thing is a great observation, its a shame its usually made by people whose real complaint about it is that its not their opinion that's dominant rather than sincere.

    Its going to sound stupid and I think its coincidence rather than acutely aware or forward thinking insight or anything but the novel fight club deals with some of this sort of thing, the people assembling at support groups who experience being listened to as something novel because they are used to no one listening but just waiting their turn to speak, its a bit more elaborate than that but I've already lost interest in this post...

  4. #24

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    Also, just to add, this forum only has a liberal bias in so far as liberalism is hegemonic, I actually think there's far right wing opinion on this forum, maybe its just more vocal but I think if you check the sheer volume of posts you'll see the divide there and its not a dearth of liberal or left opinion.

    Plus you got users who identified as extreme themselves, in blog titles, stuff like that who've laterly decided to proclaim that their unchanged positions are actually moderate, either there's been a change in the forum, change in the world or its a sort of ruse if this is true moderate now.

    I've begun to think that AD&D definitions are actually better ways to define politics or ideologies, though I know there'd be wars fought over what's meant by "good" and "evil", maybe not "lawful" and "chaos" so much.

  5. #25
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    The pew research center has some nice data showing increasing polarisation of political views in the US over the last 2 decades:
    Fewer now have mix of liberal, conservative views in U.S. | Pew Research Center

    i.e. Democrats have shifted left, republicans have shifted right.

    The median Republican is now more conservative than 97% of Democrats, and the median Democrat is more liberal than 95% of Republicans. By comparison, in 1994, there was substantially more overlap between the two partisan groups than there is today: Just 64% of Republicans were to the right of the median Democrat, while 70% of Democrats were to the left of the median Republican. Put differently, 23% of Republicans were more liberal than the median Democrat in 1994, while 17% of Democrats were more conservative than the median Republican. Today, those numbers are just 1% and 3%, respectively.
    The echo chambers are very real.

    I'm a non-American and a non-white immigrant to a western country. I sit pretty much as far left as you can go without being socialist. I'm in an academic environment, so most of the people I deal with are leftist. I'm a part of the LGBTQIA community, so I'm very used to being around people like me. But I often find myself questioning a lot of the assumptions of the left, and have no problems carrying out civil conversations with independents and those who sit on the right. I also get accused of being not "lefty" enough, but refuse to participate in purity politics because this matters far too much to me.

    Communities that maintain unity are those who prize collectivism and superficiality (the "niceness" that many here seem to abhor) because it's the pretense that allows everyone to feel respected, like they have a role to play within the system. Tribalism comes about when there's open disrespect between various groups. Of course, collectivist communities (and political systems) also do not have what western society prizes above all - "freedom of speech". In terms of social dynamics, politeness, consideration and needs outside of oneself are all important factors to build an environment that is welcoming. Otherwise dynamics degenerate into power plays and yelling/bullying. Whomever is loudest/has the most power/plays politics in the smartest way eventually drives out all dissent to build dominance (and therefore becomes the exact opposite of diversity).

    It's not about the political bias of the community. Every single community, and every single individual, depending on who they attract, will have biases. There will always be majority/minority splits in different contexts. There will also always be conflict and accusations of bias, politics, etc. Whether a community stays diverse or not depends on how individuals are treated, and whether respect is emphasized as a cultural value.
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  6. #26
    brush off the lolcows asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Echo chambers are not inherently bad. Uniform environments are not inherently bad. Treading everything in a moral vacuum - as if lacking in absolutely diversity of thought is bad by default - is a problem. There are times where dominant thinking is correct, and should remain the majority, and entertaining outside opinions that do not enrich the environment in some way should be ignored and not tolerated.

    I am, so SO sick of all of this "but all sides deserve a voice" bullshit. My tolerance for it at this point is pretty much gone. This is WHY we have trump. Because people can't get over the fact that yes, bad opinions and morals do exist and there should be no tolerance for them. It boggles my mind that people think it's genuinely impossible for someone to make correct judgements unless they sit on middle ground on everything and treat everything in a vacuum. It doesn't work.

    Echo chambers become a problem when they drift away from factual basis and fail to entertain any differing viewpoint. Honestly, those sorts of environments are pretty rare. The closest thing we have to that right now are the most fervent trump supporters, and I'd hesitate to call that an echo chamber.
    No, we have trump because the Democrats ran one of the weakest candidates since Walter Mondale, one who didn't bother to campaign much in states taken for granted as blue by the DNC once the contentious primary cycle had ended. It wasn't Trump's election to win so much as it was Clinton's to lose. Better strategy on her part and she could have easily crushed Trump, regardless of the right whining about their views and their side not being heard.

    I do agree with your final point though. And I don't entirely disagree with your first point.

    I think the left and right both have some come to some stupid conclusions as a result of such echo chambers alluded to in your final point. On the right, it's shit like "climate change is a myth"/"climate change is real but not manmade" or "abstinence only education is the only way to prevent unwanted pregnancy." On the left it's shit like let's be tolerant of extreme Islamic ideology even though in a hypothetical scenario, the left would be the ones Islamic Jihadists would target first, OR this refusal to acknowledge sexual dimorphism in human biology and continuing belief in either sex as blank slates, despite any contrary evidence and studies.

    Then there's the occasional stupid, already debunked myth you'll see people from either side talking about, like the whole vaxxer movement. Because I guess people trust Jenny McCarthy more than physicians and medical science.

    The Overton Window is a funny thing. It's not always correct and there are some things it need not encompass, but I also thing there's a lot unfortunately left out of its current range.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Isk Stark's Avatar
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    I prefer TypoC to remain an echo chamber of the left.
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  8. #28
    ISFP complete Amargith's Avatar
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    I’d prefer it to go back to an international typology forum instead of an american politics battle ground, tbh.


    At this point, americna politics seem to be so ingrained and part of the ego that it is seeping into topics as mundane as ‘do you prefer hot or cold soup?’

    And that’s not only tiresome, it’s seriously unhealthy.
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I’d prefer it to go back to an international typology forum instead of an american politics battle ground, tbh.


    At this point, americna politics seem to be so ingrained and part of the ego that it is seeping into topics as mundane as ‘do you prefer hot or cold soup?’

    And that’s not only tiresome, it’s seriously unhealthy.
    I agree with you.

    Its also become more and more and more tribal than I've ever known it and those tribes are pretty inflexible in their outlook and even towards those who may share some of their outlook.

    So if I'm feeling in a particularly liberal mood it wont take too long in the actual company of one of their self-appointed reps before I'm feeling like the most rabid conservative instead and likewise when I then encounter one of the great and good reps of conservatism. The Shakespearean curse on all houses was never so apt.

  10. #30
    sifting Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That's fair. In the last election, I voted all republican except for president in which case I voted for Hilary. I was literally depressed when he got elected. It felt like a sad day for the United States. On the other hand, I actually believe in a lot of the policies that he espouses. I agree with him. I just think he is a really ineffective leader in part because he is so inarticulate and unable to either inspire or get people to follow him. He certainly isn't able to get the populace behind him.
    Well, that certainly explains a metric fuckton.
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