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  1. #1
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Default End of Liberalism?

    The End of Liberalism? - The American Interest

    ...

    Democracy was in fine shape, as was market capitalism. What was being roundly rejected, however, was what we might describe as a common-sense liberal worldview—a kind of political correctness that since the end of the Cold War had taken questions otherwise vital to politics “off the menu.”

    .....

    Another way to put it: after the Cold War, victorious liberals made liberalism into a moral matter, a set of tenets beyond political question. Instead of defending individual and property rights and free, open markets on rational grounds, they shut down discussion by casting anyone who happened to disagree as some kind of reprehensible throwback—not just wrong, but bad.

    .....

    West European democracies had assiduously worked to banish nationalism from the Continent’s politics in the decades following World War II, in an attempt to expiate their collective sins associated with the Holocaust. It would be wrong to minimize the importance the task played in helping the Europeans get back on their feet, both economically and psychologically. But the exercise certainly left its mark. With the “defeat” of international communism in the 1990s, this convenient piety now seemed the cause of liberalism’s triumph, and was embraced with intensifying fervor. Political theorists like Jurgen Habermas began to argue that the nation-state was a necessary stepping stone on the path to the gas chambers. The post-national European Union—now increasingly seen as a universal project, the means by which mankind would finally transcend its atavistic and tribal impulses—was the only moral way forward. This pious post-nationalism was of course tangled up with unexamined justifications for markets mentioned above.

    .....

    As the European project accrued universalist, global pretentions, its most fervent defenders lost the ability to appeal to the common heritage of the Continent’s constituent peoples. Today, the situation is as acute as ever. “The very public assertion of the principle of national sovereignty by [so-called ‘populist’ leaders],” Furedi argues, “has created an ‘Emperor Has No Clothes’ situation” for the EU itself.

    .....

    In Central and Eastern Europe, at least, the intellectual case for liberalism was never really made to people. As long as blind adherence to liberal shibboleths was the price one needed to pay for rising living standards and the promise of future prosperity, most were willing to go along. But the universal aspirations of liberalism-as-religion had always rung more than a little hollow. When the future arrived and European integration underdelivered on its promises, these pieties were trivial to discard.

    ....

    It seems to me that it’s precisely the old framing—Krastev’s “liberal consensus”—that’s done for. Gone with it is any certainty about free trade and immigration, as well as any certainty surrounding the so-called liberal international order.

    ....

    But the truth is, democracy is not only working, it’s working quite well. Popular discontent with an overweening and increasingly ossified ideology is finding its voice across Europe, and has found a (deeply flawed) tribune in the United States. The future of liberalism depends on smart politicians getting the message loud and clear, and then working out a path forward that preserves all the elements of the philosophical tradition that are worth preserving. The shrill screeching of the high priests of the liberal clerisy are not helping things at all.
    ...
    It is a long piece, but well worth reading.

    Rejecting liberal cultural values isn't rejecting democracy. Additionally, liberalism appears to be rejecting traditional liberal values such as free speech and freedom of religion.

    Democracy is stronger when the people are allowed to respond to the dictates of the elected officials and unelected technocrats.

    Declaring political opponents "bad" and "evil" may feel good to some, but it destroys civil society and democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    The End of Liberalism? - The American Interest



    It is a long piece, but well worth reading.

    Rejecting liberal cultural values isn't rejecting democracy. Additionally, liberalism appears to be rejecting traditional liberal values such as free speech and freedom of religion.

    Democracy is stronger when the people are allowed to respond to the dictates of the elected officials and unelected technocrats.

    Declaring political opponents "bad" and "evil" may feel good to some, but it destroys civil society and democracy.
    So, I expect we'll see a return to discussions about redistribution and progressive taxation?

    Maybe co-management and universal basic incomes as a spur to flexible working?

    Oh, right, an ill mannered resentment of minorities and immigrants it is then, pity the millionaire and defend to the last the legacies paying their bar tabs.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  3. #3
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    The End of Liberalism? - The American Interest



    It is a long piece, but well worth reading.

    Rejecting liberal cultural values isn't rejecting democracy. Additionally, liberalism appears to be rejecting traditional liberal values such as free speech and freedom of religion.

    Democracy is stronger when the people are allowed to respond to the dictates of the elected officials and unelected technocrats.

    Declaring political opponents "bad" and "evil" may feel good to some, but it destroys civil society and democracy.
    Strange that I never read anything regarding the creep of religion into government. How is that freedom of religion when it is influencing policy? Same as the cooperate takeover of the federal government. I don't particularly care what individuals do as long as they don't break the law. I have a problem when it becomes part of legislation or is allowed to create barriers to otherwise lawful action. I have yet to hear an unbiased answer to either of these issues. Most recent numbers I could find - Not religious or spiritual: 15% Unaffiliated: 22.8%. That's 37.8% of the US population. I'm tired of being told the religious have more rights than the non-religious.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Strange that I never read anything regarding the creep of religion into government. How is that freedom of religion when it is influencing policy? Same as the cooperate takeover of the federal government. I don't particularly care what individuals do as long as they don't break the law. I have a problem when it becomes part of legislation or is allowed to create barriers to otherwise lawful action. I have yet to hear an unbiased answer to either of these issues. Most recent numbers I could find - Not religious or spiritual: 15% Unaffiliated: 22.8%. That's 37.8% of the US population. I'm tired of being told the religious have more rights than the non-religious.
    If the choice is between the bad religion you're describing and the sort of moral liberalism the OP describes its a pretty bad choice confronting Americans.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  5. #5

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    Well now, with liberalism done we just need to dispatch the conservatism, the far right, alt right and other tired as fuck ideologies and we can all surf instead of listening to a bunch of paranoid, whinging, wind bags shit themselves all day on their porches.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  6. #6
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    If the choice is between the bad religion you're describing and the sort of moral liberalism the OP describes its a pretty bad choice confronting Americans.
    I'm simply asking a question. I subscribe to AI so I'm not sure if non-subscribers can read the comments but the best conversation is in there. I really suggest reading it if you are able. I get what is being said about liberalism and agree in several ways. I feel Hillary was more of the reason for the loss than anything but that's my opinion. I also feel if people are simply sick of liberals and vote otherwise, that doesn't make them instantly conservative. I don't feel these are the only choices and I'm happy to talk about compromises but not until someone acknowledges the attacks on the 1st amendment (NOT ONLY FREE SPEECH) and money in politics and corporate interference in government. Which I have never found anyone disagreeing that it's a problem, no matter their leaning.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I'm simply asking a question. I subscribe to AI so I'm not sure if non-subscribers can read the comments but the best conversation is in there. I really suggest reading it if you are able. I get what is being said about liberalism and agree in several ways. I feel Hillary was more of the reason for the loss than anything but that's my opinion. I also feel if people are simply sick of liberals and vote otherwise, that doesn't make them instantly conservative. I don't feel these are the only choices and I'm happy to talk about compromises but not until someone acknowledges the attacks on the 1st amendment (NOT ONLY FREE SPEECH) and money in politics and corporate interference in government. Which I have never found anyone disagreeing that it's a problem, no matter their leaning.
    I followed Bernie Sanders for a while on FB and his focus was all those things, so there's someone on the case, I dont think that he's the socialist he's made out to be though and I think its a shame that these things are anathema or left out of discussion.

    The thing about people being sick of liberals, I get that, sort of, but I'll be honest I'm as sick or more sick of the conservative equivalents too, globally, not just in the US. Its possible to read (generally really old) sources of each which are great but its hard to relate any of it to politicians or pundits these days.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  8. #8
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    The choice is between the liberal democratic globalist order that has been pushed strongly in the post Cold War era or another system, or no system at all. As the article notes, former Eastern Bloc nations were forcefed the liberal democratic order and are now rejecting the liberal part.

    They are choosing an illiberal nationalist democracy. People are tired of distant nonelected technocrats and plutocrats ruling their lives. This is democracy in action.

    Besides, the Western liberal democratic governments were increasingly ditching the values of liberals, like freedom of speech, freedom of thought, privacy, and democracy, to further their politically correct agendas.

    Identity politics supporters have demonstrated that they will adopt authoritarian means to further their goals.

    I don't know what the next paradigm will be, but I hope it isn't a retrenching by the plutocrats to further erode democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    The choice is between the liberal democratic globalist order that has been pushed strongly in the post Cold War era or another system, or no system at all. As the article notes, former Eastern Bloc nations were forcefed the liberal democratic order and are now rejecting the liberal part.

    They are choosing an illiberal nationalist democracy. People are tired of distant nonelected technocrats and plutocrats ruling their lives. This is democracy in action.

    Besides, the Western liberal democratic governments were increasingly ditching the values of liberals, like freedom of speech, freedom of thought, privacy, and democracy, to further their politically correct agendas.

    Identity politics supporters have demonstrated that they will adopt authoritarian means to further their goals.

    I don't know what the next paradigm will be, but I hope it isn't a retrenching by the plutocrats to further erode democracy.
    I'll tell you what it'll be, its in the body of your post even, the complaints that you've leveled at liberalism will be the exact same things that the far right introduce to further their own, apparently anti-liberal agendas, its the same dog with a different collar.

    You think that PC liberals globalisation is a drag, well, wait until the far right's new world order version of globalisation catches on, its gonna be just as much of a drag or more so because if you've worked everyone up into a frenzy detesting the liberals only to discover the alternative sucks and you cant think of another one, all you got is frustration and depression.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  10. #10
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    I'll tell you what it'll be, its in the body of your post even, the complaints that you've leveled at liberalism will be the exact same things that the far right introduce to further their own, apparently anti-liberal agendas, its the same dog with a different collar.

    You think that PC liberals globalisation is a drag, well, wait until the far right's new world order version of globalisation catches on, its gonna be just as much of a drag or more so because if you've worked everyone up into a frenzy detesting the liberals only to discover the alternative sucks and you cant think of another one, all you got is frustration and depression.
    An ideal world for me would be full of democratic nations where the rule of law was strongly respected, where corporations and plutocrats and technocrats all were restrained.

    Most wars and conflicts arise from plutocrats and their interests, whatever the form of government.

    Now, someone from a divided nation with a long history of conflict and sectarian violence might fear the nation-state model. There has been a 70 year campaign to demonize the nation-state, but out really is the only way to have responsive representative government.

    Neoliberal economics and neocon foreign policy (the doctrine of the US and Western Europe in the post-Cold War era) that is killing people around the world and enslaving and corrupting developing nations. The policies lead to oligarchies run by plutocrats, as we have today. Strong democratic nation-states can stop the multinationals and break them up, thereby freeing the people from bondage. Instead today we have weak states such as Ireland aiding and abetting corporate crime and tax avoidance.

    Using terms like "far-right" really is inaccurate and just serves to dehumanize opponents. Throughout my life I have known many strong leftists that were also strong nationalists and populists. Nationalism isn't inherently a "right" concept. I do find it difficult to understand why so many leftists today so support the neoliberal world order when it only enriches oligarchs and hurts the majority of the people.

    It is better not to tell others what they think and feel. It is rarely accurate and most often about oneself, not the other person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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