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  1. #71
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    How about bourbon my dear?
    Well, it is my most important duty, after all.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #72
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    So would conservative feminism mean then that they would be advocating for an even more tightly coupled connection to the home than what has been the status quo ? Or does it mainly exist simply as an opposition to Leftist Feminism ?

    Should women be satisfied with just knowing that they've raised a good family ? One of the reasons that the questions about "equal pay" came up is due to how they are compensated for their efforts. One can say that it really shouldn't matter if they trust their husbands to always look out for them, now and in the future; but we've all heard horror stories about why they might plausibly consider doing exactly the opposite of that.
    I think Peguy's concept is more radical (read: fundamental) than that. He seeks to reassert the prominence of the private sphere over the public sphere by tying both men and women down to primarily serve the private sphere. So if we accept that this is something that should be done, then of course something like radical feminism would seem absurd and dangerous.

    However, where I think Peguy loses his whole "equality of men and women in their both being tied to the family and the home" thing is that while he offers vehement critique of feminism, he offers no such critique for the men who neglect their family duties. And men in this society are by far more likely (and in greater numbers) to abandon their ties to the home. So why is such criticism directed to a small number of radical feminist women and not to the large number of men doing the same thing (only it's not seen as radical, it's just normal)? It's as though it is more egregious (and therefore more detestable) for women to neglect their duties to the family than it is for men. And I have yet to hear an explanation for why this is.
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  3. #73
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    It sounds to me like you're trying to make a case for the family being the most important focus in society. I am totally for making families (where people choose to have them) the most important focus in people's lives, but I am not for pigeonholing women into "primary influence" in a family, potentially devaluing the influence of a father (and perhaps devaluing a woman's influence outside of her home, since it isn't the "most important" thing she does).
    Im not for devaluing either mothers or fathers. But we mustn't forget that the roles of mothers and fathers are different - and often the mother's role is more direct.

  4. #74
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    There really aren't many conservative women's issues that are compatible with feminism "which is a discourse that involves various movements, theories, and philosophies which are concerned with the issue of gender difference, advocate equality for women, and campaign for women's rights and interests."

    Promoting traditional gender roles is one, but it is still kind of sketchy to bind that with feminism.

  5. #75
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think that whole "the role of mothers and fathers are different" is WAY overstated. I have (had?) some hormonal links to my children that my husband does not, and of course I was the one with the boobies, but things that are necessarily exclusive to mothering are only a tiny slice of parenting.
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think Peguy's concept is more radical (read: fundamental) than that. He seeks to reassert the prominence of the private sphere over the public sphere by tying both men and women down to primarily serve the private sphere. So if we accept that this is something that should be done, then of course something like radical feminism would seem absurd and dangerous.
    Somewhat true. I'm always interested in addressing the "fundamental" concepts and issues effecting the world, and thus yes my concepts are far more radical in nature. As for the primacy of the private over the public. It'd be better to say that my argument is that the private sphere is the basic foundation for a healthy public sphere. Of course there's so much more to it than that.

    However, where I think Peguy loses his whole "equality of men and women in their both being tied to the family and the home" thing is that while he offers vehement critique of feminism, he offers no such critique for the men who neglect their family duties. And men in this society are by far more likely (and in greater numbers) to abandon their ties to the home. So why is such criticism directed to a small number of radical feminist women and not to the large number of men doing the same thing (only it's not seen as radical, it's just normal)? It's as though it is more egregious (and therefore more detestable) for women to neglect their duties to the family than it is for men. And I have yet to hear an explanation for why this is.
    Simple, the topic of this discussion has been about Feminism, specifically whether or not a "conservative" form of feminism can even exist - and if so what would its basic precepts be and how would it differ from what we traditionally see as Feminism. I'm arguing that such a concept can exist and have tried laying out some of its basic principles.

    The issue of men who neglect family roles has not been major concern of my argument in this context. Certainly an entire discussion in of itself can be made about that. It's not that Im deliberately neglecting that topic; but as I stated to Bluewing - ONE TOPIC AT A TIME!

    In many ways, the breakdown of the family in society on many levels has helped lead to the rising of a generation of men who don't give a rats' ass about caring for their families.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Simple, the topic of this discussion has been about Feminism, specifically whether or not a "conservative" form of feminism can even exist - and if so what would its basic precepts be and how would it differ from what we traditionally see as Feminism. I'm arguing that such a concept can exist and have tried laying out some of its basic principles.

    The issue of men who neglect family roles has not been major concern of my argument in this context. Certainly an entire discussion in of itself can be made about that. It's not that Im deliberately neglecting that topic; but as I stated to Bluewing - ONE TOPIC AT A TIME!
    But it is really, really relevant to a conversation of feminism to discuss female roles that contrast with or are shared by men. To say "men and women have an equal role/responsibility in raising children" is rather different from "a woman's essence is in the home/family."

    So far, all I see you do is elevate the family and stress how important a woman's traditional role is, that it's even more important than all the other roles that people might fill. But if men must also prioritize family life over everything else, I'm not sure that it's really a "conservative feminism" anymore; it's just a commentary on the importance of family.

    In the even that women really do, in your view, have a "special" role with family and home, I maintain that your ideology is limiting to men (and therefore problematic), who could theoretically have the same kind of (or very similar) impact on their homes and families. See Ivy's comments.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #78
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    But it is really, really relevant to a conversation of feminism to discuss female roles that contrast with or are shared by men.
    Isn't that the basic point of Feminist discourse anyways?


    So far, all I see you do is elevate the family and stress how important a woman's traditional role is, that it's even more important than all the other roles that people might fill. But if men must also prioritize family life over everything else, I'm not sure that it's really a "conservative feminism" anymore; it's just a commentary on the importance of family.
    Issues related to the family are important in any discourse on gender roles, male or female. The "Conservative feminist" angle is focusing on the female's role in the family, and how that relates to her overall role in society. Her role in the family is the foundation for her role in society.


    In the even that women really do, in your view, have a "special" role with family and home, I maintain that your ideology is limiting to men (and therefore problematic), who could theoretically have the same kind of (or very similar) impact on their homes and families. See Ivy's comments.
    I don't see how that is so as far as men are concerned. As for women, I've already stated my basic position here numerous times.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Well, I guess tomorrow I'll just have to point out all the hegemony up in this piece.* But right now I have to right a defense of using awesome close reading strategies in youth group and go to bed.


    *Or Orangey could take care of that. She'd probably rock that better than I'll probably end up doing, because I'm fairly satisfied for myself that I don't see much substance in conservative feminism.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #80
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    "Conservative feminism" doesn't really focus on women's rights, which is central to feminism.

    "Cultural conservatism" or traditionalism is a more apt term.

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