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  1. #31
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's a rather odd argument to make against conservative feminism. That actually applies more to radical feminism more, whose views are so out of touch with reality.
    I haven't made any arguments for or against radical feminism, but I'm not sure that a position that seems to require a social ideology shift (ironically enough, given your objections to my objections to judgments) is any more realistic than radical feminism.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #32
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    The Prohibition in the United States was started in large part by "conservative feminists" in the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, mainly to stop abusive men from harming their family.
    No offense.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Well, as you seem sympathetic to this conservative feminism, what say you to the contributions of women in literature/art, science, politics, business, and the like?
    That's all nice and good, but doesn't change the fact the primary role of women is in motherhood and the home. And as I stated before, the home is the birthplace of culture - so essentially bringing up literature and art and all that is a wonderful way to back up my argument. Women had power in one of the most influential institutions ever - the home and family.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I haven't made any arguments for or against radical feminism, but I'm not sure that a position that seems to require a social ideology shift (ironically enough, given your objections to my objections to judgments) is any more realistic than radical feminism.
    Ever heard of the Reformation? The Enlightenment? And so on? Major shifts in world-views have happened and are a common theme throughout history, and has even been the study of numerous thinkers. Don't believe me, read up on the works of the Italian Neo-Marxist Antonio Gramsci - who dwelled quite a bit on this topic in his Prison Notebooks.

    He noted the importance of "Hegemony" in determining the basic worldview of any society; and how its basic precepts were often protrayed as unquestionable facts of nature.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's all nice and good, but doesn't change the fact the primary role of women is in motherhood and the home. And as I stated before, the home is the birthplace of culture - so essentially bringing up literature and art and all that is a wonderful way to back up my argument. Women had power in one of the most influential institutions ever - the home and family.
    What about science, politics, and business? What I am asking is, when women have stepped out of their traditional roles in the family and home and made contributions outside of it (particularly in typically "male" fields), are those contributions (and... women?) somehow devalued because they made a choice to do something unconventional? When women are not really "wired" to be at the center of home and family, are they devalued? When men are, are they? Does conservative feminism lock people into roles?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ever heard of the Reformation? The Enlightenment? And so on? Major shifts in world-views have happened and are a common theme throughout history, and has even been the study of numerous thinkers. Don't believe me, read up on the works of the Italian Neo-Marxist Antonio Gramsci - who dwelled quite a bit on this topic in his Prison Notebooks.

    He noted the importance of "Hegemony" in determining the basic worldview of any society; and how its basic precepts were often protrayed as unquestionable facts of nature.
    Well, in that case, why is radical feminism *more* unrealistic?

    And it is indeed fascinating that someone who defends "conservative feminism" would bring up the term "hegemony." I've kind of covered hegemony here before.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    What about science, politics, and business?
    In the grand scheme of things, those are secondary to cultural matters. In fact culture even provides the basic guiding principles for science, politics, and business. And the major figure who was often entrusted to instill such guiding principles into us as children was the mother.

    Does conservative feminism lock people into roles?
    Yes and no. With any principle, there's always exceptions to the rule.

  8. #38
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ever heard of the Reformation? The Enlightenment? And so on? Major shifts in world-views have happened and are a common theme throughout history, and has even been the study of numerous thinkers. Don't believe me, read up on the works of the Italian Neo-Marxist Antonio Gramsci - who dwelled quite a bit on this topic in his Prison Notebooks.

    He noted the importance of "Hegemony" in determining the basic worldview of any society; and how its basic precepts were often protrayed as unquestionable facts of nature.
    Um yes...and doesn't this present a problem for the idea of the unquestionable domestic role of women by nature? Hasn't hegemony been a starting point for many feminist social critiques?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Well, in that case, why is radical feminism *more* unrealistic?
    For one thing, conservative feminists can at least point to times when their basic principles actually were implemented. Radical feminists cannot, although they do make pathetic and hilarious attempts at it in regards to polemics about pre-historic matriarchies.

    And it is indeed fascinating that someone who defends "conservative feminism" would bring up the term "hegemony." I've kind of covered hegemony here before.
    The concept of Hegemony has been studied by "conservatives" of various kinds for at least 50 years now. So it's not out of character.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    So, the notion is that there is somehow a "classical" role that women fill, and that women should be satisfied--no, honored--to fill this classical role of motherhood, tender of the hearth, and so forth. Should we then be satisfied to stay out of the "male" realm, in which we may have interests and inquiries that we have the intellectual capacities (if not cultural permission) to pursue? Should we be satisfied to merely exert our influence via domestic life, not through voting?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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